She’s at Princeton and loves it. It’s an hour from our house and has great financial aid. She really liked Smith but it was about 15K more a year. She liked WashU but it was a plane ride away and she liked Pitt but it’s on the other side of the State and wasn’t much cheaper than Princeton.
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Sorry for the delay in responding, Bonnie. I literally spent the day traveling out of state to visit a dying friend. (No joke.)
Your daughter sounds like a wonderfully delightful person, and your love for her shines through in what you write. I’m in awe of the two of you.
I don’t know your daughter, so I’m the last person to consult about finding her tribe. Since you asked, I’ll throw out some ideas, which might be different, with the disclaimer that I could be way out in left field.
My first suggestion was Rice, but it sounds like you might prefer to have her stay on the East Coast? I still think that it would be a good fit for her.
I would include in my search for her clan tiny Olin College of Engineering in Needham, MA, right on the Wellesley town line and immediately adjacent to Babson College. Olin is a very special place for special, creative, and very bright people. When I think Doc Brown, I think Olin. It participates in a 3-college consortium of Babson, Olin, and Wellesley (BOW), which allows for cross registration among all 3 colleges. You can literally walk from the Olin campus onto the Babson campus; OTOH, Wellesley College is across town. Olin does not offer Astronomy but Wellesley does and she could study astronomy there. I like Olin better for her because it’s a place where students play with ideas and create. I think your daughter could have fun there and excel. You can visit Olin and Wellesley in one trip. Talk to both and see which one seems like the better fit.
Many great colleges have been suggested to you. MIT and Cal Tech both sound like great places to study. They are so intense and almost impossible for even extraordinary students to get into, so I’ll skip them. Two other schools which I think are worth considering are both in the Capitol district of NY and could be visited in the same trip - RPI and Union.
RPI offers everything under the sun in the sciences which any future astronaut could want. Their Astronomy program is only at the master’s level but they offer a 4+1 BS/MS program to which she can apply out of high school. Working with an advisor, she could work out a sequence of courses which make sense in a 5 year integrated plan, culminating with the master’s in astronomy. Typically the combination might be BS Physics/MS Astronomy, but other combinations are possible. RPI is 2:1 male:female. It’s something they’re trying to change, so they would just love to have your daughter! Never having met her, I’m going to take a shot in the dark and say my wild hunch is that she may work better in a predominantly male environment. Crazy idea?
Union College is a Liberal Arts college, smaller than RPI or Rice, (2500 students) in Schenectady, NY. It’s an overlooked gem IMO, strong in the sciences, including the rare engineering major at a liberal arts college. They also offer an undergraduate major in Astronomy. Both Union and RPI have on campus observatories.
I don’t know if cost matters to you at all (and I don’t need to know) and my suggestions are not considering cost. But I’ll just mention that ALL students accepted at Olin automatically receive the Olin Tuition Scholarship, which covers 50% of tuition. It’s currently valued at $100,000. I also believe that there’s a strong likelihood that RPI would offer her some form of merit scholarship because of their high priority on attracting bright, high science achieving young women.
Best of luck in finding her clan.
Bill
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I should have noted that there are minors in astronomy and astrophysics at RPI.
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One thing you’ll need to take into consideration is the possibility that her interest will change and she might end up concentrating in a different field. While a school like Olin is a great place it’s also a niche school and nowhere as flexible as a large Research institute or LAC to accommodate changing interest. Being a part of a multi-school Consortium helps.
I’ll second RPI and Union. I have friends with friendlets at both schools and both love it. The friendlet at Union is extremely bright and high achieving young lady that could have easily gone to UPenn and probably other prestigious schools but found her fit at Union.
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Good points. Hence my suggestions to look at other schools as well - Rice, Wellesley, etc.
I son’t Know this girl and was responding to the description of “Doc Brown” (Back to the Future). If that captures who she truly is, then Olin seems like a perfect fit to me.
But let’s entertain your concern that her interest might change because it’s an important issue. One of the things I really like about Olin is that it’s not your grandfather’s engineering school it only started 29+ years ago with a specific mission. The founders believed that engineering education was too narrow. Because they believe that engineering begins and end with people, their students study the arts, the humanities, and the social sciences as will as math, science, etc.
I think of it as a place that teaches creative thinking and problem solving with real world applications more than anything else. Because their program is grounded in the liberal arts, their students get a well rounded education and come out as well rounded people. I think of it as a Little Ivy with an emphasis on engineering but still with that liberal arts core that all Little Ivies have.
Someone who has a radical change of heart, always has the transfer option. The fact that courses are available at Wellesley and Babson, both top schools in their own right, means that exploration of courses in other areas is readily available and a transfer to one of those in particular should be relatively easy.
Again you raise a legitimate concern, so it’s something that should be discussed in some detail frankly and openly with campus reps.
I’m not sure what it was, but something in the way the mom described this kid jus made me think that she’d be a great fit at Olin.
Here’s a link to Olin’s mission statement and their overview of the curriculum there:
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More about William & Mary, which is instate for you. Athletic teams there- William & Mary “Tribe.”
Lots of smart, quirky, intellectually curious kids. There are astronomy classes within the Physics department and an Astronomy Club. As mentioned , she may change her mind about what she wants to study- very common.
You also have UVA on your list -a son went there and loved it but William & Mary sounds like it might be a better fit . Lots of kids have a clear preference between the two. Worth checking out both though. Good luck!
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I’m noticing that the link I just posted doesn’t work. I don’t know why, but if it’s typed into the address bar, it works.
Maybe if I do it this way, it will work:
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If her dream job is in NASA mission control, I would look into aerospace engineering (or another type of engineering) or astrophysics rather than astronomy.
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Hey, I’m a current PhD in Astronomy so may be able to help!
Firstly, I’d advise that she not go to a large university, almost certainly nothing like Princeton, Harvard, MIT etc. None of those big names, primarily because astronomy (which is identical to astrophysics) is a very competitive field. She must have research experience as an undergraduate, but the more impressive the school, the more driven those students tend to be towards academia and the more competition there’ll be for research spots. If she’s not comfortable speaking up and fighting for a spot, she won’t ever get one. And that’s her career over, just like that.
There’s a great value in being a big fish in a small pond because graduate schools judge you on your achievements relative to what was available. Big schools have a lot of clubs and research activities around so she’ll be expected to take advantage of all of that, and negatively judged when she doesn’t. A smaller school means she can stand out more easily and get good experience. It’s also far easier to make good connections with professors if the classes are only 10 people as opposed to 500, and it’s those letters of recommendation that ultimately decide whether someone is accepted to a PhD and where. LACs are particularly good because their students get first preference for REUs - the highly coveted Research Experience for Undergraduates programs.
I went to a small program as a very socially awkward young girl, and it gave me the space to develop more confidence and greater social skills. I was able to get research experience and publish papers; that wouldn’t have happened at a larger program. I was able to start up my own educational initiatives – initiatives that are already represented 100x over in larger universities but were lacking in my own; I certainly could not have done that at a larger program. All in all, the smaller program put me on track to be a Rhodes finalist and now Gates-Cambridge scholar, and that would not have happened, and I would likely be just as socially immature, had I gone to one of the big universities.
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I would urge you to look at Agnes Scott College in Atlanta. It has a wonderful reputation and is a women’s college with a terrific physics/astronomy department. We looked at this school for my D20 and it appears to be extremely supportive, she would absolutely get a chance at any research position if she applies herself. They have their own observatory, quite unusual for a small urban campus.
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@astrotemp hits the nail on the head in post #28. It seems to me that a student like this will not thrive in an intense competitive environment where she will possibly be lost in a sea of superstar students.
I suggest this student considers schools such as Amherst, Haverford, Vassar Wellesley, Williams, and Wesleyan. Franklin and Marshall, Agnes Scott, or Union could be safeties or low matches. In addition, Haverford, Williams, Wellesley, Union, Vassar, and Agnes Scott have their own observatories.
It’s not difficult for LAC students to get research positions. Because students get to know professors at LACs right from the start, they are able to learn about opportunities more easily and get good recommendations. Most of these smaller colleges lean collaborative rather than competitive. Personally, if I were the student in question, and given what you have told us about her, I’d be strongly looking at Haverford, Amherst, Wesleyan, Vassar, and Agnes Scott. Haverford leaps above the others IMO. Nurturing environment where your daughter will get a lot of great professor and student interaction, though all the schools mentioned will provide that.
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I wouldn’t make that assumption. I wouldn’t equate lack of assertiveness with a lack of competitiveness. I don’t know this child but she may be highly competitive and it seems she has an inner drive that may show her competitiveness.
That being said the LAC route is a wonderful option but I wouldn’t totally dismiss any type of school at this point. I can only speak of Princeton from my D17’s experience but it’s been great so far for her. The UG Asto department isn’t that large as she is only 1 of 9 Concentrators (majors) in her year. Since all students have to write a Junior Paper each Semester and then complete a Senior Thesis research is built in and not something one has to seek out and compete. They are very good at helping students get Summer research opps as my D was to do research at a Max Planck institute in Germany but alas it has been canceled. But as soon as that was canceled she was assigned to the Summer Astrophysics program that Princeton has every year that will happen online and started working with her Senior Thesis Advisor and will begin her research for her Senior Thesis and all the while given a nice stipend. Not to mention that she kicked off her Princeton experience by completing the Integrated Science Curriculum as a Frosh which is a great program for anyone that intends to do research as a career.
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OP’s own description paints the student as being mild, not the sort to speak up, and not the sort to compete. I trust her assessment of her own daughter.
There is no inherent benefit of attending a large, prestigious program. There is no inherent benefit of attending Princeton for astrophysics. None. It doesn’t make you better poised for graduate programs because students there are expected to have all of that while students at smaller schools are not. Applicants are judged based on their achievement relative to what was available.
I personally work with people at Princeton and none of us would particularly recommend it over any other physics program (and it really ought to be physics in undergrad, not astronomy/astrophysics).
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I’ll add another voice recommending Harvey Mudd, since it is both engineering focused AND a small LAC.
My D had very similar profile, in many ways (GPA, SAT, DYS, dance rather than athletics), but is more outgoing and more artistic tendencies, has been extremely happy at Middlebury, and has found “her people” there. She also really like HMC when we visited, but it didn’t have her major.
I also agree with others that W&M would be a great place for you to look.
Your D is in a weird place, in that her test scores are great, as are her ECs, but her UW GPA is slightly low for many of the more competitive colleges. That may reduce her chances at places with very low acceptance rates.
Good luck, she sounds like an amazing person, and I think that she’ll do great anywhere she ends up attending.
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Well as a parent of a mild, extremely shy D I’m not going to make absolutes about someone I don’t know. I’m also not into making absolutes about college choices. Going to a small LAC worked out great for you - you also don’t know the outcome you would have had if you went to Princeton or to a large public university like UCB or Purdue, etc. There is merit in all those choices. Princeton has the best need-based FA in the country so it could be the cheapest option if she were to get in. It’s also very rigorous and can be really stressful which isn’t the best environment for everyone. So do more research, visit as much as possible and at this point I don’t think it’s beneficial to eliminate huge types of school and just focus on one specific type. Come up with a list that includes likelies, matches and maybe a reach or 2 if they seem to fit. I know you said you’d pay whatever but do the NPCs. Is say a Haverford at 70K a year really worth it over a W&M at 25K a year, etc.
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Rice is in a cool part of Houston and has a very nice campus. Nerd cool. She wouldn’t need to navigate much of Houston to have a great experience at Rice.
U of Texas at Austin has a big program and is associated with the McDonald Observatory in west Texas. I went to grad school at UT and currently live in Austin. Austin is an easy place to live and go to school. However, due to the top 6% in state admissions rule many undergraduates are grade oriented and accustomed to lobbying for higher scores on tests and working the system. UT has made a concerted effort to improve undergraduate teaching and has undergrad research opportunities even though it has a large graduate program. However, overall it doesn’t seem like the best fit for how you describe your daughter.
For a woman who has trouble putting herself forward, women’s colleges can help with that. Women at women’s colleges are more likely to major in STEM than women at coed colleges and universities. .
Another possibility to consider is what type of advising or other support your daughter would get at each school. I don’t know enough about the programs that interest your daughter to recommend Northeastern. However, my son just finished his freshman year at Northeastern so I can speak to the coop program. Each student takes a coop preparation class the semester before they go on coop. Students receive guidance on writing resumes, filling out applications, and how to handle different types of interviews. My son also struggle with putting himself forward and compete so I was pleased to find out about the coop prep class. I would assume that other colleges and universities have classes or career center programs where she could learn how to put herself out there and compete.
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Happy to report that N got accepted to Haverford yesterday.
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A large school is more likely to have something for everyone; even if most of the school does not fit, the part that does fit is more likely to be large enough than at a small school. A small school may be a great fit if most of the students are what she is looking for, but can be a poor fit if there are only a few or none among the other students.
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We are holding our breath waiting to hear from Rice. She looked into the college , did a lot of research, joined a few Information session and agreed with all your points. Rice became one of her top choices. Keep our fingers cross that Rice also think she is a good match for them.
Bonnie, I have a hunch that your daughter will be accepted at Rice despite the fact that applications are way up everywhere this year.
Congratulations on her acceptance to Haverford. That’s a real honor. The Quaker consortium with Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore, and UPenn expands opportunities at a small college.
I’d love to hear if she gets into Rice.