Help needed filling out daughters college list (LACs/small research)

College Search & Selection
1

Good morning folks. Everyone has been so helpful in the past, and I thought it was a good time to raise this flag. We are trying to assist my daughter in filling out her list of schools to apply to. She’s focusing on LACs and smaller research universities in the mid-Atlantic and New England.

Here is some info about her. She is very smart, and is the sort of kid who is interested in learning everything she can about as many things she can, whether it be history, genetics, learning to sew, learning to bake, or learning a new musical instrument. She’s energetic, enthusiastic, makes friends easily and with everyone. She thrives in discussion-based classes and from when she was four has enjoyed developing personal relationships with her teachers, so a small class size and smaller school would really be ideal for her. She especially gets excited when she can make connections between different subjects–she’s not the sort of kid who “stays in her lane”, and, for example, is only interested in learning about engineering and nothing else matters. She’s liberal-minded, is interested in politics, but isn’t the sort of kid who would be involved in protests. She once organized a forum for local political candidates to address gun violence issues, and once met with our former senator to discuss gun violence, which she enjoyed immensely–that’s the type of involvement in the political process she is most interested in (I could envision her eventually becoming an advisor to a congressman or senator in DC, to be honest). We’d love for her to be in an environment where she would be surrounded by kids like her–and by that I do NOT mean politically; she enjoys healthy debate. I mean, surrounded by kids who have a ton of interests and get excited about learning even if it has nothing to do with their major or career goals, that she wouldn’t be looked at funny for having that attitude. Although she is social and leans to the extroverted end of the scale, she doesn’t like to drink or party, and isn’t interested in a school with a large greek life, but honestly I think her outgoing, welcoming personality would make her great for a sorority if she could find one that is a good match for what she likes to do. She’s a public school kid and gravitates toward normal, non-privileged peers, with ordinary, diverse, vibrant backgrounds. She’d undoubtedly be a credit and contributor at any campus–a teacher once described her as someone who would “bloom in a cave.”

She doesn’t want to attend a city school. That’s pretty paramount.

Planned Major: She’s leaning heavily toward biology, probably micro or even genetics if it is offered. She is not interested in medical school–she prefers research. I could envision her double-majoring in history/government/political science. Or quadruple majoring. Heck, add physics. But micro is #1.

Now the boring stuff.

She is an IB candidate.
UW GPA: 4.0
weighted GPA: 4.58 (highest possible, but for unweighted middle-school classes that count as high school credit)
Class rank: 11 out of ~600 (because some of her classmates have taken additional online AP classes to goose their GPAs, some who are ranked above her actually have a lower unweighted GPA)
SAT: superscore 1530 (780M, 750E). One sitting: 1500 (750/750). She wants to take it once more, but whatever.
SAT subject tests: Just took bio and math, scores not reported yet
LORs: From the above description of her, we suspect they will be sterling.

ECs: She is a non-recruitable swimmer (HS team, ten years on a club, former synchronized swimmer who competed at nationals a couple of times). She is working this summer in a PhD-level microbiology lab at a nearby university, under the direction of a well-regarded marine biologist researcher and professor. She plays piano and guitar for fun. The other stuff–honor societies, volunteerism, etc.–are pretty normal for an IB student with her drive. She keeps busy, but chooses things she likes to do.

OK–Her current list of schools is a little long, and I’m hoping for more suggestions on the low end. I’m especially worried about the trend of safe schools rejecting kids because they think she won’t attend there. So, on the low end, we’re trying to focus on schools that offer merit scholarships, simply because they may be less likely to reject her, not because we’re searching for a large scholarship.

Finances: We expect to be full pay, and, while it will hurt, we are prepared.

Public/private: There’s probably a 75% change our family will move out of state the summer after she graduates, and we don’t know where yet–so there is zero financial benefit to applying to an in-state public.

Location: To reiterate, we are limiting her to east of the Mississippi, and she wants to get out of the south.

Reaches: Harvard, Brown (Legacy), Amherst, Williams, Swat, Wash U.
Matches: Bowdoin, Tufts, Wellesley, Middlebury, Colby
Probables: Bates, William and Mary
Safeties(?) Oberlin(??), Rochester (2-G legacy)
School she is on the fence about: Duke, UVa (both larger than what she wants and in the south, but realizes she wouldn’t be unhappy there)
Schools she isn’t interested in: Emory, Vandy, Wesleyan (no idea why), CMU, Penn, Hopkins, Washington & Lee, Wake Forest, Davidson, Haverford (too small). Also MIT–low chance of admission, but it was instructive that she just didn’t like it there.
School we are thinking about but need to learn more about: Colgate, Hamilton, Lafayette, Bucknell, Richmond, Lehigh–a couple of these may have too much of a party/Greek atmosphere for her. Any others?

Note: She LOVES Bates and may even chose it over a school in the “match” or “reach” groups.

I know this is long, and thanks for reading. Does anyone have any insight on Oberlin and the schools in the “need to learn more about” group? Would they be good fits for her? Is Oberlin too progressive, or is that just a myth? Is there anywhere we’ve missed?

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How does she feel about suburban schools vs. rural?

How about some additional women’s colleges besides Wellesley? Smith, Mt. Holyoke and, one of my favorites, Bryn Mawr? All offer excellent academics but are less competitive to get into than some others.

3

Have you looked at Vassar? We toured there in April and as I was reading your post it sounded like a good fit for her. Wouldn’t be a safety but you might be able to call it a match with her stats.

4

Thanks folks. I’ve tried to probe her thoughts on the suburban/rural issue. She seems to be indifferent. She visited a bunch of these schools, and likes Williams and Swat equally, and that’s pretty much the dichotomy there. CMU was too urban, even being in a mid-size city and not the city center.

She hopes to visit Mt. Holyoke and possibly Smith, if we have a chance. She hasn’t rejected them, in part because she was so impressed by Wellesley when she visited, and has indicated that she’d consider other women’s schools if they have the science program and facilities she wants and would get at, say Amherst and Bates (new science center opening up in a year, IIRC). We didn’t visit Bryn when we were at Haverford and Swat, unfortunately. I hear the dining options are insane there.

She hasn’t really considered Vassar, although I’ve mentioned it to her–she may believe it is too close to NYC and therefore too urban. I’m not sure that’s true, but have never been there. It’s a good suggestion.

5

To be honest, I think that your matches are really reaches and that your probables are really matches. Admissions has gotten unreasonably competitive recently. Overall you have a really solid list and I’d consider adding schools like Hamilton to it to round it out. Your kid could consider applying ED to one of your reaches.

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Amherst, Hamilton and Brown might be natural academic fits for her based on their notably flexible curricula. Amherst benefits additionally from its consortium. Hamilton benefits from the academic breadth and spatial variety inherent to its once having been two colleges. (Smith also offers a particularly flexible curriculum.) Vassar, mentioned above, might make a good addition.

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Vassar isn’t urban at all and would be quite picturesque being on the Hudson River, except for the fact that Poughkeepsie isn’t very nice at all. Very run down. I didn’t go to Vassar but used to live about a half hour away. Students might have a different perspective.

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Thanks @writingpumpkin03 – Yes. It’s so difficult to correctly classify these schools. I honestly think the Reaches/Matches should be split into three categories, not two, maybe calling them “upper matches” and “lower matches,” with the “upper matches” being just slightly more likely than the “reaches.” But that’s when it becomes overkill!

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This U.S. News article can help your daughter identify colleges from her group that have been recognized for their faculty-mentored opportunities in research/creative projects:

https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/undergrad-research-programs

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In a thread about six months ago, several folks identified Hamilton as a terrific option, and based on that it’s likely she will apply there. I placed it on the “need to learn more” category in part because we didn’t visit, and would welcome additional views about the school.

Thanks for the additional info about Vassar!

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Yes, I remember your earlier thread now, @RayManta. As it left off, I believe your daughter really liked her visit to Middlebury in particular.

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I agree with adding Hamilton as they have few distribution requirements so it would be easier for her to double/triple major. Plus it has a nice balance between arts and sciences.
For a girl, Bowdoin is a tough admit, so I would move that to the reach category. While most lacs get more female applicants, it is more pronounced at Bowdoin then at other NESCACs and the female admit rate is a couple points lower than for males.
Vassar is not really urban. It’s worth a look. It’s accessible to nyc, but about 2 hours away, so it’s not an everyday trip for students.

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Thanks again folks. Hamilton really sounds (and seems) like a winner.

That’s interesting about Bowdoin. I think it’s worth applying to, but I suspect she may prefer Bates if she is admitted to both.

@merc81 --Yes–good memory! She did love Middlebury. Problem is, she seems to love ALL the NESCACs!

We don’t want her to have to apply to 20 schools. And as you know and has been discussed, the holistic review process is a double-edged sword. There’s no longer any certainty, no clear distinction between reach/match/safeties. It just comes down to whether a school “likes” you or not.

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If it was the vibe of Wesleyan that turned her off, Vassar may not be a good option, but I agree that on paper, it should be, especially if she likes Oberlin. And Bates, Hamilton, and Connecticut College are often overlaps.

I think you may be overestimating the “matches” – all reject lots of excellent students – but I also suspect that with her stats, a complete shutout is unlikely and that she will have a slight edge at several schools simply because she is coming from the south. F&M, Dickinson, and Denison are 3 to consider that are a bit less selective.

Lastly, being rejected for being overqualified is unlikely if she writes applications that indicate genuine understanding of and interest in the schools. While this has been debated ad nauseam on these boards, my best guess is that many of those overqualified denied applicants did not sufficiently tailor their apps, figuring that they were a shoo-in.

15

I think you’ll find Lehigh too Greek.

How about Dickinson college as a probable?

My D is similar to yours and really liked Smith. Open Curriculum, nice new Science facilities, cool college town. MHC is similar but she thought it was too remote though your D shouldn’t have that issue.

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Is your D a rising Senior?

We decided not to chase merit, so for us we thought of the college admissions process as a 2 step process. Step 1 was the fit and step 2 was the gamesmanship part. By that I mean thinking about:
(1) whether kid should apply ED anywhere to take advantage of that lift (and just how big a lift depends on the school and personal things to you like legacy),
(2) which schools kid should apply non-binding/non-restrictive EA so they’d hopefully have an acceptance to a school they’d like in their pocket, and
(3) how many schools in each category they should apply to.

I like EA to a likely school because (a) if you get a rejection it gives you a little time before the RD deadline to look at your application and make sure nothing is glaringly wrong, and it gives you a chance to re-evaluate your college list to make sure that it’s realistic, and (b) if you get accepted, you will know in December that you have this nice acceptance into a school that you’d be happy to go to, and it makes the long wait until March much more bearable. This is especially important if you applied ED anywhere and got rejected. It’s really hard to sit on rejection and uncertainty that long.

In looking at your list, Wash U should be listed listed as a match rather than a reach. Did she like Bates much better than Brown? Just thinking that if she does go ED she should do it to the school she loves (Bates) even though she would have gotten a double boost at Brown with ED and legacy.

Oh, and Tufts has ED2, so if she really likes Tufts she might consider that.

Sorry that my post is so much about gamesmanship. It just seems like with some of these crazy numbers of denials that you are forced to think about how your kid helps the school with their needs, and locking in kids through ED is one way that helps the schools.

How many schools in each category is your D thinking of applying to? Be very careful about not applying to too many because essays are important and she needs to take her time with these. Our GC said it’s very hard to do more than 10 well. If your D is able to start and finish some in the summer maybe she can do more, but even with more time it can be hard to keep it real if you do too many.

17

Consider building the list by identifying safety/match schools which share qualities with the match/reach schools. I agree that the matches are all reaches, and the probables and safeties are matches. While acceptance rates at Oberlin have bounced around a bit, and are now in the mid 30% range, I think, I wouldn’t call it a safety even for a well-rounded, high stat kid.

So, for ex, a student who likes Bowdoin and Midd, might consider St Lawrence; a kid who likes Wellesley, consider Mt Holyoke and BMC; a kid who likes Tufts might like Dickinson. Having some EA applications submitted would also be important, though much as I love Dickinson, its Feb reporting date for EA decisions does not help students winnow down their Jan application list. So some EA schools with pre-Jan decision dates would relieve some of the pressure, though many of those schools are in the midwest, not east coast.

The challenge is, upper middle class, white girls are an over-represented group at Northeast LACs so the application net needs to be cast more broadly. And, while it is difficult to predict outcomes, I think framing an application in a way which speaks to qualities schools are looking for has an impact – it is not so much whether a school “likes you” but whether you are a match for the values of the community. And while there can certainly be a different focus among top 30 LACs, there are also generally shared values, including valuing diversity, valuing community. So being attuned to the culture of a school, or schools, in ways which come through in the essay and any supplements, can help.

18

Definitely include Rochester, but I wouldn’t consider it a safety, despite the slight hook. Maybe a match…but she would still need to demonstrate interest. Their relatively high acceptance rate is deceptive. Their enrolled freshman profile is more in line with schools like Colby (with an acceptance rate of 16%).

My daughter just graduated with a double major in microbiology and public health and a certification in biotechnology from Rochester—lots of research opportunities for undergrads. She loved the flexible curriculum and ease of study abroad (even for those with double or triple majors).

19

Bates seems perfect for what she wants. If she is willing to go to Ohio, is the Midwest in play? Carleton and Grinnell would fit her criteria really well.

I agree that the matches are really reaches. Bowdoin in particular has become an incredibly tough admit, and the reality is that unhooked kids with a 4.0 and 1530 SAT’s are par for the course at most of these schools.

All of these schools give significant preference to ED applicants, so if she can identify a number one, it will really help with admissions. Especially if it is a school like Bates, where she might go from a low reach to a high match if she applied ED. Or a dream school like Brown, where the legacy hook might take her from an 8% chance ED to a 20% chance ED (estimates, but probably close based on some threads on CC)

Lastly, I’m not sure the safeties are all that safe. Richmond, Lehigh, Oberlin etc are tough admits, especially for unhooked girls. Maybe throw in an application to a school like St. Lawrence, Dickinson, or Denison.

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Vassar is too urban but Harvard, Tufts, and Brown aren’t?