Does a Bachelor of Arts in a STEM field or a Bachelor of Science in a STEM field matter?
For example: to take the patent bar exam it says that you need a bachelor degree in the fields listed above, including STEM fields. However, it doesn’t say if a bachelor of arts or a bachelor of sciences is necessary.
Does it matter? Can a bachelor of arts in a STEM field, say CS, also allow me to quality for patent bar exam?
I don’t know for sure, but my father in law had a BS in chemical engineering, then got his JD in patent law. He’s been very successful. Here’s an interesting article about it patent attorneys:
“As you may know, it is very important that you choose the schools to which you apply based on the strength of their patent/intellectual property programs, and not just their overall ranking. For example, the University of Houston Law Center, the Santa Clara University School of Law and the George Washington University Law School have extraordinarily strong intellectual property programs even though they are not in the top 10 law schools overall. For more, you can explore U.S. News’ list of the top intellectual property programs.”
Here are the general requirements (from the USPTO) for sitting for the patent bar:
http://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/OED_GRB.pdf
I"m not going to read all 44 pages,but I’m pretty sure you’ll figure out exactly what you need in there.
Here is a thread of lawyers talking about it:
I’ve actually read all of the general requirements; it doesn’t mention bachelor of arts vs bachelor of sciences.
I’m asking about category A, to be specific: "CATEGORY A: Bachelor’s Degree in a Recognized Technical Subject. An applicant will
be considered to have established to the satisfaction of the OED Director that he or she
possesses the necessary scientific and technical training if he or she provides an official
transcript showing that a Bachelor’s degree was awarded in one of the following subjects
by an accredited United States college or university, or that the equivalent to a
Bachelor’s degree was awarded by a foreign university in one of the following subjects: "
bump
^^You might want to try asking this in the Parents Forum-there may be people there that can help you.
I guess you didn’t believe what I wrote in your other thread, so let me repeat.
It is a serious mistake to aim for the minimum requirements for entry into a profession. It may be that a B.A. in computer science (if such a degree actually exists) would qualify you to take the PTO examination and become a patent attorney (if you pass a state Bar, that is).
But that will not get you much of a chance of getting a job as a patent attorney, certainly not for a patent prosecution position because your competition will have B.S. or higher degrees. Your failure to go for the B.S. will be considered a drawback. You would have to be a top-flight law student to be considered by a law firm for a possible patent,litigation position.
So don’t look for the easiest way out for this career.
@dadofsam I’m not looking for the easiest way out, I’m assessing my situation. Currently, applying to a College of Engineering would be extremely difficult for me as my STEM grades are not stellar, so I would rather go to a College of Letters and Sciences where I have a higher chance of admission and study CS, though as a BA. I would still take supplemental STEM classes along with this to make up for the fact that a BA in CS isn’t as rigorous as a BS.
Please try to understand my complete situation.
Thanks!
@dadofsam there definitely is such a thing as a BA in Computer Science, and it’s fairly common.
In the CS world, hiring a kid with a BA in CS (given through the arts & sciences department) is as attractive as hiring a kid with a BS in CS (given through the engineering dept).
However, OP, it’s important to note that this may NOT be the case as it applies to becoming a patent attorney.
From everything my FIL has said about being a patent attorney, the Chem E’s are the most attractive undergrad choice for becoming a patent attorney, and have been for a very long time, because it’s a staggeringly difficult major, and the requirements for being a successful patent attorney are as difficult.
It’s not one of those professions where you can suck at it at the beginning levels-there’s a reason those people are still in demand and highly paid-it’s wicked hard.
This is one data point from my FIL, to be fair, but I watched my BIL and my SIL wash out of trying to be a patent attorney at the undergrad level (both started as engineers) and end up with history and poetry degrees, and then go on to become intellectual property and copyright attorneys. They’re no dummies.
@MotherOfDragons Thank you so much for your respectful and well-thought response. I know right now that CS/EECS is a huge field for Patent law, especially with more tech start-ups throughout the country. Sorry, but could you explain why you mean by “wash out” in “I watched my BIL and my SIL wash out of trying to be a patent attorney at the undergrad level?” Could you go a bit more into their situation, if possible?
I think what I’ll do is I’ll see if I truly am interested in CS after my summer program, which is interning at a top CS company. If I find myself interested, I’ll probably apply with CS for some schools as a BA (because, as stated before, I have no chance as a BS in the Engineering schools), and then aim for category B in addition to meet the patent bar requirements.
Another reason I really am interested in CS as my undergraduate major is because if patent law doesn’t work out, it’s relatively easy to find a job for CS majors too, compared to Chem E in my experience (I have some friends whose parents have had to travel across the country to look for jobs).
Also, if I do get a BA in CS and I find out I love it, I’ll probably pursue a MS in CS and then go to law school (the median age for law school is around 22-27 anyways, at which I can get my Master’s in 2 years after my Bachelor’s). Would this put me at a greater advantage? Also sorry, I’m not completely clear on this but is it alright for a BA in CS to apply for a MS in CS, or would a BA in CS have to go for a MA in CS?
Thanks everybody!
Let’s untangle a few of these issues:
Then you should reconsider doing a STEM major. It doesn’t get any easier in college, and STEM majors are filled with people who breezed through high school science and math courses.
Colleges of arts and sciences, or letters and sciences, also award BS degrees. Look at the specific degree awarded by the department you are considering. This is likely a moot point.
As @dadofsam said above, that’s the wrong question. A better question would be whether a BA in computer science would put you in a good position to obtain employment as a patent attorney (the patent bar being a necessary, but hardly sufficient, requirement for such). The answer is likely “no,” the few exceptions hardly being the rule.
My suggestion, again, is to look up a few of the job openings and attorney profiles at firms in the area you are considering living in. The former will give you an idea of what it takes to be a serious candidate; the latter will let you know what characteristics successful candidates have.
Drakonus:
We still don’t know why you are interested in becoming a patent attorney. As a high school student, you really are looking too far ahead. And you should major in CS only if it’s a subject that you like and are willing to spend four years learning it. And if you find that it’s not for you, then change your major to something that is.
And if you remain interested in patent law, you should keep an eye out for current requirements for becoming patent attorneys. Right now a B.S in CS could be enough to make you competitive for an entry-level position in patent law, but in seven or eight years, after you have finished both college and law school, the educational level of your competition could be higher. You might therefore need to take an advanced degree in CS.
You can teach an Engineer/CS major law, but you can’t teach a lawyer engineering.
Patent lawyers that I know got STEM degrees, worked in that field a while, but then went back to Law School and became Patent Lawyers.
Seems to me that you should go to an ABET accredited school…you are talking about the top .01% of colleges…there are tons of ABET schools with engineering that are very good and you could do CS at them. You may find you like CS.
You probably should just follow the requirements listed by the USPTO and not try and find an alternate way to appeal or petition since you are early to the game. Patent attorneys get to where they are in life through many routes. It’s hard to tell which one is the best, but from what I’ve seen, the best patent attorneys worked in their field for a while before becoming an attorney. It seems that the ones that go straight from engineering school to law school and then start practicing have difficulty understanding the technical aspects or practical implementations of many inventions. I got my BSEE, then worked for many years, had a family, then studied for the patent bar, became a patent agent, took the LSAT and then went to law school. Most patent attorneys I work with worked in their field for at least a couple years before entering the patent area.
@ariesathena “Colleges of arts and sciences, or letters and sciences, also award BS degrees. Look at the specific degree awarded by the department you are considering. This is likely a moot point.” -These courses are not ABET accredited, which needs to be met to take the patent bar exam.
Also, “Then you should reconsider doing a STEM major. It doesn’t get any easier in college, and STEM majors are filled with people who breezed through high school science and math courses.” I’ll reconsider after I see how my summer experience is, but so far, I think it’s pretty interesting after talking to people and attending some more conferences/events. Plus, I’m best at CS out of the approved classes which meet the requirements for the patent bar exam.
@dadofsam I already answered why I’m interested in patent law in my previous thread. Please reread. I plan on getting a MS in CS.
@18yrcollegemin @bopper Thanks so much!
The problem is the schools I’m interested in (I really want a good, maybe liberal arts college -as I prefer smaller class sizes focused on undergraduate students- that is balanced both in English and STEM) don’t seem to be ABET accredited, even though they deserve to be. I plan on studying CS in undergrad with a English minor ( I was going to do the reverse at first before I found out requirements for patent bar), but the college of engineering is too hard for me to get into for most schools (as like I said before, I was totally set on English with better grades in English and ECs humanities oriented too, but now I fortunately have more exposure to STEM, which is really nice!).
Would a BA in CS for undergraduate and then a MS in CS put me at a disadvantage, or is that okay? (Also is it even okay to go from a BA to a MS or do you have to go from a BA to a MA?)
I know a BA would put me at a disadvantage compared to people with a BS, but if I get a MS it should be fine?
@18yrcollegemin So you would recommend not being a patent agent but perhaps working as a CS person in the industry to get the “feel” right? That makes a lot of sense! Does age really matter then for law school? I see articles on how the average age is 22-27 and that being too old may not be good; did you find any trouble/did you feel left out going to law school after starting a family?
@bopper Do you know if CS counts as the Option 4 in Category B for “engineering?” I would probably be unable to go to a ABET accredited school as I’m probably going to only be accepted into the College of Arts and Sciences for CS, which gives you a BA and not a BS degree (and only BS programs are accredited). Therefore, I would probably go the category B route, and I’m just wondering if you have any like information on that? Thanks a lot!!
Also, would you recommend me explain my situation of why I seem so well-balanced and not leaning towards CS in terms of ECs, even though I really like it and I want to pursue it (I was set on English for quite a long time before I found my interest in CS)? Perhaps in essays?
OP- it’s great you love English. It’s great you love CS. Give yourself time- say about a decade- before you decide that you need to pursue a career in patent law. You are putting the cart before the horse in a major way.
I am willing to bet that patent law isn’t what you think it is. So slow down- you don’t need to determine your entire life’s path while you are in HS.
I know two successful patent attorneys. One has an undergrad degree in engineering (I think mechanical, not sure) and after working for a few years, went to law school. The other has a PhD in engineering, then law school.
Neither had any intention to go to law school when they were in HS. You don’t need to have figured everything out right now… and worrying about being too old for law school is TRULY a problem you don’t need to tackle right now.
OP, have you had any programming classes yet in high school? Are you good in math? I haven’t read any of your other threads, but it seems like you are only choosing to pursue CS so you can get some STEM background. CS is a hard field for those who don’t have an ability for it (and in my opinion strong in math.) I know many students who have changed their major from CS to MIS or something totally unrelated. IF YOU DECIDE to get your degree in CS, I would recommend a school that is ABET accredited. Many LACs do offer it who are not accredited, however, I always wonder if they are keeping up with how quickly the industry changes. I know those schools who focus on CS and engineering have a hard enough time doing this!
I wouldn’t worry about being too old for law school. I started law school at 36 and there were people of all ages there. That being said, I had 4 young children at the time and the pressure to succeed at school as well as be the perfect mom was almost unbearable. There are only so many hours in the day. And as @blossom noted, I was also one of those people that never had any intention to go to law school. Life itself has a way of getting in the way of plans you make for your life while you are in high school.