<p>I'm not sure which school is right for me. Financially, Caltech would be cheaper for me, but my parents would be willing to pay another college. Could you offer some advice/comparisons between the two based on: </p>
<p>social life - I don't want to party all the time but I want the chance to hang out and try new things.
academic quality - I want to major in some aspect of biology, but I'm not sure what yet. I'm considering research but I really don't know. >< Probably not pre-med.
rigor of workload - I know this varies for everyone, but I don't want to be stressed 24/7 and it usually takes me a while to take in new information (though after that, it usually gets way better)
grad school/job opportunities</p>
<p>Social Life: Cal >>>> Caltech. Here’s why:
1. Cal’s student body = 30,000, Caltech’s = 2,000
2. Cal’s male:female ratio = about 1:1, Caltech’s = somewhere between 70% and 80% male…that’s just not very exciting.
3. Cal has Berkeley and SF (bart gets you there in 30 minutes)…compared to Pasadena, a more eclectic, exciting environment.
4. Cal has football.</p>
<p>Academic quality: depends what you study. Caltech probably has a (very slight) edge in a select few programs…but for that very small edge, you have to sacrifice any option of a change of plans outside of science/engineering. So I would probably call it even.</p>
<p>Rigor: they’re both pretty tough schools…but I go to Cal, and it’s not as bad as people say. Studying in small groups is great- make friends with people in your classes. Social skills will become very important in college.</p>
<p>Opportunities: I don’t really know. I know that Cal is great for this, but I know nothing about it for Caltech, so I couldn’t compare, except to say that even if Caltech is outstanding, it’s probably still about even.</p>
<p>Bottom line? In my opinion, go to Cal. The overall experience will probably be much better.</p>
<p>I personally wouldn’t pass up Caltech, especially if it’s cheaper.</p>
<p>Caltech and Cal are both ranked very high in biology. The slight advantage goes to Caltech by mabye 2 or 3 spots.</p>
<p>Caltech is most likely more difficult, but hey, that’s how it goes at a school like that.</p>
<p>I’m personally not a fan of such a sausage fest, but your social life is what you make of it.</p>
<p>The possibilities of grad school and research are much better at Caltech than they are at Cal. However, if you actively seek out the opportunities and are diligent at Cal, then it shouldn’t make a huge difference.</p>
<p>Naw, if you’re very good at Cal, i.e. up to the level of a strong Caltech student, you’re going to have it great, not just decent. Remember, Cal isn’t known half for undergrad as it is for being a research powerhouse, and if you’re actually worthy as an undergrad, professors will help you – and don’t forget that the Cal faculty is godly in many disciplines.</p>
<p>Check on the Caltech forum with individuals like lizzardfire – he will tell you what he’s said before, which is that in Caltech, there is a significantly greater emphasis on imposing a <em>diversely</em> technically rigorous program. A math major will take pretty damn tough chemistry and biology as part of the core, and a fair bit of physics. Also, Caltech is tougher on letting you skip classes, because they believe part of their philosophy is to put all students through certain (admittedly challenging) classes. </p>
<p>Caltech is more intense on average, and students are closely knit in an intense math and science atmosphere. Also, every student at Caltech is probably pretty smart. The average Cal student is significantly less so, though there are stars here. </p>
<p>Do you value Caltech’s philosophy of a tightly knit, intense boot camp type first year or two, where you will certainly receive more scientific breadth than at Cal? (You COULD receive the same breadth at Cal, but 99% chance says you won’t.) Or would you rather have less demanded of you, but make your own schedule? And, <em>MOST IMPORTANTLY</em> do you thrive in an intense atmosphere with intense classmates, or do you prefer a mix? Because top people come from all over the place, and you have to pick what works for you.</p>
<p>Well, that’s why I threw in that last sentence.</p>
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<p>I mean, if you’re a super star at Cal, then you’ll probably do as well as you would at Caltech. Regardless of that, you’ll still have to put up with huge weeder classes at Cal, so your interaction with faculty members will definitely be more limited. Since you’re going to need some letters of recommendations and research experience for grad school and research, you’ll want to know your professors.</p>
<p>Nope, you don’t. I never took a huge weeder class, tastybeef – I’ve never been in a math class with more than 13 students or so, if I have it right. Maybe Math 54 or 53 may have large class sizes, but upper division classes are quite small, and whether at Caltech or Cal, you’re not going to want to get recommendations from professors with whom you’ve taken a lower division course. Rather, you should get recs from those who can attest to your capabilities in coursework more reflective of the skills you need to be a graduate student.</p>
<p>How have you never taken a class with more than 13 people? Math 53 and 54 are huge classes with more than 400 people. 55, 104, 110, etc. all have around 35 people just by looking at schedule.berkeley.edu. And remember, just because you didn’t have to take them doesn’t mean it’s the case for everyone else. The vast majority of students are going to have to take classes with more than 13 students, especially in biology.</p>
<p>That brings me to the next point, the OP intends to major in biology, not math. Even in upper division bio classes, classes can be quite big with around 100-200 students. Of course, there are the small and obscure upper division bio classes like ornithology, but seriously, how many people really want to do research in ornithology?</p>
<p>Hey, thanks for all of the responses. Actually, the money difference is about 12k, so yeah. =/</p>
<p>I’m not exactly a genius at math and science. I’m only good at biology and chemistry and am a bit iffy with physics. I’m just worried that at Caltech I’ll constantly be struggling through tough physics and math courses that I’m unfamiliar with. I know that students there are encouraged to collaborate a lot, but what if it takes me longer to understand something?</p>
<p>I don’t mind an intense atmosphere, as long as its not super cutthroat with students constantly trying to sabotage others or something like that. </p>
<p>Does anyone know a bit more about how each college is in preparing you for grad school/working? What can Cal offer me that Caltech can’t and vice-versa?</p>
<p>^That’s why I recommend you to go to Cal. At Caltech, you will have to take Quantam mechanics and other hard physics and math courses to fulfill the core requirements. At Cal, you will not have to take these rigorous classes, but if you still want to, you can. So, at Cal you will have a lot more freedom.</p>
<p>From what I heard, CalTech is a pretty interesting university. It has a honor code system in which all the tests and midterms that the professors give are “take-home” - meaning you can do them after class in your dorms. You are in charge of the time, whether to cheat or not, and etc. The exams are never proctored. They also give you keys to all campus facilities 24/7, so basically if you want to do research in the middle of the night - you can just get up and go do it.
CalTech is hard and the courses are rigorous, but you will learn a lot of things if do go to these classes.
Some of my friends are in CalTech right now and they say that sabotage is almost a never, because there is basically nothing to sabotage about … all the exams are take home. Everyone there is friendly and collaborative, and the courses there value more on hands-on activities (like going out and do projects) rather than theoretical (like lectures and reading and those boring stuff).</p>
<p>Well, if the major has 200 student upper divs, that is pretty disgusting, and yes, Caltech’s smaller sizes will pose an advantage, and you do have to be really really persistent to make your face known.</p>
<p>That’s too bad. In the case of 35 student classes, however, frankly if you’re not out there enough to get the professor’s attention, you won’t succeed at getting it in Caltech either – at that point, it’s not about numbers, but persistence of the student. </p>
<p>I said I’d never taken a <em>MATH</em> class with more than that many people. Considering my major is in math, I’m not so worried about any other classes being larger. </p>
<p>If the OP is iffy about physics and other sciences, however, regardless Caltech may not be the choice, but you may want to brave it for the atmosphere. Frankly, if you like Caltech’s atmosphere, I’m going to change gears and agree with tastybeef, <em>only</em> because I am trusting his/her word on the biology major’s upper division classes being overcrowded.</p>
<p>Also true. Don’t put yourself through hell just for small classes, but all the same…ridiculously large classes from frosh to senior year isn’t great either. I’m too lazy to verify that biology classes are as large as tastybeef says, but OP, you know what to do – check schedule.berkeley.edu, and look at the biology classes.</p>
<p>A caveat for my statement that upper div biology classes are overcrowded is that I’m mostly referring to MCB and Chem Bio classes.</p>
<p>If you’re interested in other bio courses such as those offered by Nutri Sci or Integrative Biology, then your upper-div classes might be smaller. However, realize IB classes are studying biology in the macro sense, not at the molecular or cellular level. Courses in IB that have relatively few students include California Plant Life, Ecological Genetics, Herpetology, etc. If that sort of stuff interests you, then more power to you. Most biology students aren’t very interested in those subjects, let alone doing research in them, but you may be one of them.</p>
<p>If you want to go to grad school (esp in the life sciences), you’ll want to be doing tons of research. Caltech requires a heavy core, and if you’re already not looking forward to it now, you’ll probably be hating life midway through soph year when you’re slogging through stat mech and QM problems along with solving probability and diff eq problems. I actually think most of the core is extremely useful, even to biologists (you will learn the derivation for student’s t-test and other tools that are commonly used in all fields of research).</p>
<p>Caltech’s access to research is amazing and the fact that everyone is doing it really helps. The professors assume that you’re there to do research and your classmates are doing it too. This basically flows right back to social life since the people you hang out with understand what you’re doing (ie, that’s one benefit of core) and are excited to hear about your research. If you think it would be fun talking about cutting edge research with your friends, you’ll love Caltech.</p>
<p>As a private school, money flows to student activities fairly easily. There are ~8 big (interhouse) parties a year and the school gives at least a few grand at each party for booze and party construction. There are also random clubs that students start and get money for to buy their equipment. I’m sure there are parties and even more clubs at Cal, but there aren’t “slush funds” like at Caltech that students/clubs can just hit up for money.</p>
<p>Biology research means PhD. CalTech is number two in the whole country for its percentage of undergrads earning a bio PhD. Sure, it’s hard work, but the payoff is there.</p>
<p>Thanks a lot for the responses! I’ve decided on Caltech, mostly because of money and research opportunities. I realized I usually enjoy challenging courses and don’t mind toughing it out for a few years! =P And class size didn’t matter too much for me, it was more about class variety. But apparently you can take classes at UCLA and nearby colleges, so it won’t be a problem?</p>