<p>Momrath and Northstarmom - your last two posts are exactly how we are feeling - BOTH of them! And therein lies the rub. But having this forum to "think" with is a big help in articulating things. Hopefully I will figure out what to say and how to be encouraging - I just really hope he doesn't quit the diploma and then regret it.
Here's another quirk - his TOK class allows only 2 absences per semester to maintain an earned "A" - even if the absence is due to school (math competition or varsity game). So it would be very difficult for him to do any college overnight visits during fall semester. It just seems overly rigid!</p>
<p>I'd like to add a postscript: I just got off the phone with my son. He said his summer internship mentor told him that his extended essay would make a good dissertation topic.</p>
<p>orjr, if your son does decide not to continue in the IB diploma program, perhaps he should talk to his guidance counselor about possible changes in his class schedule. If he's no longer bound by the constraints of IB, he might want a different mix of courses than those that currently appear on his schedule. It may be too late to change, but he won't know until he asks.</p>
<p>My daughter received an IB diploma this year. When I asked her the morning before results came out whether she would do it all again, I received a firm "yes!". Going in, she said "I would feel that I was cheating myself if I do not do this." She feels the same way now. I believe there is an important distinction between doing the Programme to help with college admissions vs. feeling that you want the challenge and to receive the best education available. Motivation is a large part of a positive IB experience. That being said, colleges do look at a student's curriculum vs the most challenging offered at his/her school. They also look at diploma candidates differently than certificate candidates.</p>
<p>TOK was my daughter's favorite IB course. It stretched her mind in ways far different than any traditional high school could. </p>
<p>I would not advise your son to give up on the diploma programme just yet....
besides the guidance counsellor, I would suggest that your
son speak with the IB Coordinator...perhaps there is a way of "tweaking" your son's schedule to accomodate the better TOK class. Even if not, by discussing the problem with the coordinator, he may save other students from being in his position. I must say, I am a bit startled that your son's school has a teacher untrained in TOK teaching the course. My understanding is that IB training is a prereq. for teaching any IB course.</p>
<p>Good luck to your son!</p>
<p>icesk8mom- I agree with you! My S had the same feeling - this is the right thing to do because I enjoy it and I want the challenge! Until last year when the rigidity of the programme began coming through because it is so weakly supported at our school. There are 2000 students (500 per GC), no IB advisor, and only four HL choices - it is more like a cohort. The highest number of diploma candidates they've had in the 7 years of the program is 8. For 06-07, if my son drops, there will be 4 students left. It is a Title I school that has been labeled "underperforming". To be honest, the untrained IB teacher is very low on their list of things to look into, and the program is so tiny it dictates your schedule completely. The GC's want high praise because they've "allowed" him to be editor of the paper and still in IB - that's very hard for them you know, because it affects so many other schedules!</p>
<p>My S did the IB and my D is going into the final year in the program. I recently went with my D to about a dozen highly selective schools in the Northeast and generally asked admissions officers what they thought of the IB program. Most, if not all, offered some advance standing for having completed the program; sometimes based on getting a 6 or 7 in a higher; sometimes simply by doing the program. When I asked if simply doing the program was an advantage in terms of admissions the answer I generally got was no, but that they wanted to see that the applicant had done the most challenging program available at his or her school. Because a program like this is not widely available they were not prepared to treat applicants who did not have access to it at a disadvantage, which I think is the only fair approach. I did get a pretty consistent message that if an advanced program was available and the student chose not to take advantage of that opportunity it would be a factor (one of many with no suggestion as to how this factor would be weighted against others) in forming their view of the applicant.</p>
<p>Thanks all! S will talk to GC next week - when we can find out who it is - and also to the IB coord. It looks like he may stick with all IB classes, but drop TOK, and thereby the diploma. He would have 3 HL exams in May and more time for writing and Habitat. He can also add Adv. Sports Medicine to his schedule. I'm beginning to be swayed that balance is a good goal in and of itself and the academic skills are being gained, even without the spiffy medal. I'll let you know what happens - thanks for all the input!</p>
<p>My daughter graduated in 2005 with an IB Diploma and had a year taken off of her college because she had the diploma not individual certificates which are treated like AP's. Yes it was living hell her senior year including a "zero" hour class at 7:15 AM. In Texas IB Diploma Graduates are automatically granted a minimum of 24 hours of credit at a state school and some kids get as much as 30. My daughter ended up at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln with 33 hours of credit. The classes that cause the most grief at our school are Spanish and History of the Americas. My daughter played volleyball and was active in class council, church youth and worked part-time at the sporting goods store. The best thing my daughter has said about her experience is that "college has been a piece of cake compared the the IB Experience."</p>
<p>I think the whole 'most challenging' issue gets beaten to death on this topic. The TOK class and EE are meant to be the capstones and net tying together a rigorous cognitive program that expands the capacity to examine learning and knowledge. They are not meant to be instant ins to the college of one's choice.</p>
<p>So, if the TOK and EE are not serving their prime purpose, when the best thing some people can say about an IB diploma program is that the misery makes what is experienced in college seem easier, I think the answer is an easy one.</p>
<p>Might I add that my son did certificates and AP's instead of the full diploma- did one year of TOk but did not continue because he had the weaker teacher option and felt the experience would be less fulfilling to him than using the time to star in some shows, do MUN etc at the highest levels. HIs U gives virtually no credit for AP scores or IB higher scores of 5 or 6-7 respectively. </p>
<p>I think when kids operate solely from the 'I was afraid not to' or 'fear of the what ifs' rationale when making these sorts of decisions it resonates in all they do-- but if instead they make the tougher choice (perhaps, on the surface to give up the 'more challenging' option) they might then have a chance to do things so meaningful to them- that instead this is what resonates. </p>
<p>If every kid on the planet was best served by doing the full IB diploma then it would be the first time in educational history that this had taken place- that a singular curricular approach was best for everyone. Simply stated, for a range of reasons, even for very capable kids, it may not be the best option. For what it is worth, my son was accepted to more statistically competitive Unis then many of his classmates that did 'full IB'...in fact in his class, of the kids accepted at Ivies and similarly competitive Unis/LACs, only half did the full IB...the others did all AP or IB classes, often substituting AP when they would have taken an IB standard, or simply picking and choosing based upon strengths, interests, teacher affinities.</p>
<p>One more thing, at our school IB classes at HL are weighted 1 point as are AP, IB standard are weighted .5, so kids doing full IB often come up with somewhat higher weighted GPA.</p>
<p>I just want to second what anitaw has said. I am NOT an IB parent, but I am a parent who let my kid follow her own inclinations, and bail out of the "most challenging" path in order to do something which she thought would be a greater challenge, but which wreaked havoc with high school scheduling. In my daughter's case, the choice was a semester abroad -- but it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that she was true to herself and she ended up getting into colleges that were real reaches for her. I'll never know for sure, but I really doubt that she would have gotten into the colleges if she had followed the standard path of taking the toughest possible course load at her high school. </p>
<p>Colleges don't like to see kids slacking off --but that is not going to be the case here.</p>
<p>I think that the decision needs to be made by orjr's son, and the parent should support the son either way. I have never regretted encouraging my kids to take a more relaxed approach toward life -- I just had this odd idea that children shouldn't have to be stressed out all the time, so I always encouraged them to pull back if it seemed like the stress was too much. There were also times my kids took on challenges that I worried would be too intense... but I'm glad that while I was always there to lend my support and to praise their accomplishments, I was never pushing or prodding. </p>
<p>So the son should know that it is o.k. either way. Whatever difference it makes in terms of college admissions is minor and speculative. The only value of the IB diploma in the end is how he feels about it -- the sense of pride and accomplishment that some students have written about is real, and certainly of true value to them, but it doesn't mean that another kid needs to follow suit.</p>
<p>IB parent here. Kids need to make the decision whether they do the program or not. If I were the parent, I would encourage a decision to stick it out but if my son wanted to "bail" so be it. That said, I do believe my son gained a sense of accomplishment from completing the program and he generally enjoyed the challenge of the two years and was involved also in many school activities. He also gained 30 college units by choosing a college that valued the IB diploma. But the decision to go for the diploma was his.</p>
<p>Calmom, overseas, and anitaw -- I agree so much with all of you. S has still not made a decision, but is getting comfortable with the idea of backing off. I'm all for balance! He has a great group of activities he enjoys and a very demanding academic load without the TOK and EE. Whatever he decides, if he decides with his heart - it will work out fine.</p>
<p>It's one semester of 1 class that's holding him back... I'd really say push through it. An IB diploma is something to be very proud of. I doubt it will make a difference in college admissions, but it would be the difference between "very difficult schedule" and "most difficult schedule". Could admissions come down to that? I guess it could, but it probably won't.</p>
<p>I agree with LWMD that class for class it probably isn't that much more work than AP, but the difference is how many people who take AP classes take 6 a year + TOK? Hardly any.</p>
<p>So... I vote that you encourage him to stick it out for another semester. He can enjoy the spring semester when he can slack off some. When you have to stay at school longer than everyone else for IB classes, it sucks, I was there too. And yes, most IB students get little sleep, and most IB students seem ridiculously involved in activities. My sleep schedule was essentially go to sleep at 2 or 3, up at 6:30, and then a nap when I got home from school (because there was no way I was going to finish all my work if I didn't sleep). He can be tired for another semester.</p>
<p>/Diploma May '04</p>
<p>IB parent, one D completed the program, applied to fairly competitive array of LACs and ended up at Kenyon after mulling admissions to a number of others. Rejected at several though, too. IB may have helped with admissions, diploma meaningless, some schools would give credit for HL classes but only with the highest scores on the tests. I don't believe she got any credit at Kenyon.</p>
<p>Second D, also bright kid, also doing IB and now a senior. She crashed last year grade-wise but is continuing with the full program this year. Chronic procrastinator but resentful when we remind her of deadlines looming, etc., so this hasn't been a good year for parent child relationship. She has bought into the argument that admissions officers look favorably on students taking the hardest curriculum and IB is it, but I have pointed out that has to be backed up with decent grades. She has quite good standard test scores but a mediocre GPA, which I think any competitive school is going to interpret as indicative of a student that isn't making the effort.</p>
<p>I have told her we would support her if she dropped IB but she won't. As a result we are guiding her to consider less selective colleges overall because her GPA just isn't going to do it. She seems OK with that because there are so many places where a kid can get a wonderful education, they just don't have the prestige name.</p>
<p>I really don't know about how helpful IB is in college admissions. I meet with applicants to my alma mater (yes, an Ivy), and I've noticed that IB applicants often do not get admitted. It does not appear to give any sort of edge whatsoever in admissions, at least in this area. There are four IB high schools in the area. The top-rated one has fewer and fewer full Diplomas granted each year (shouldn't a successful IB program be going in the other direction?). In meeting with IB applicants (particularly from this top-ranked program), it seems sometimes that they appear as "achievement automatons." They do so much work and have to be involved in so much to fulfill their CAS requirements that sometimes it seems as if they have lost their spark. </p>
<p>Just my opinion.</p>
<p>I would say there's definitely a feeling of burnout for a lot of IB students around the time the extended essay is due, which is late February. They've worked so hard and pushed and pushed. It's not just the CAS hours, a lot of IB students could fill the CAS requirements 2, 3, or 4 times over with the amount of stuff they are involved in, myself included. Sometimes at the end there's not really motivation to put effort into those exams in May. I hardly studied at all for mine.</p>