Help please from other IB parents

Parents Forum
1

<p>My wonderful son is losing heart as he enters his senior year. He is a diploma candidate, editor of the paper, and plays two varsity sports, as well as very active in DECA. It has been hard for him to fit all of his favorite things in his life, but so far he has managed. Last semester the school scheduled TOK as an "early bird" class, with a teacher who was not IB trained. He had to catch a ride at 6am and often - because of sports - wouldn't get home until 8 or 10 pm, to shower, eat and start homework. It was a torturous semester - especially because TOK was a class many students looked forward to as the highlight of high school,but then they got the "bad" teacher at the "bad" time. And of course the HW load in IB was stiff.</p>

<p>He just got his schedule for this semester (1st semester, senior year) and he is once again placed in the early bird TOK with the same teacher. Because the school doesn't support the IB program well, there is often only one session of each class, and while there is TOK in the regular day with the "great" teacher, it's not available due to a conflict with another required IB class.
THANKS for sticking with me - here's the question:
He now says he wants to give up the diploma because he doesn't want another semester of exhaustion when the teacher isn't even any good. That would leave him with two HL exams and all IB core classes, but no diploma and a much later start time for school. "Mom, I just want to have a happy senior year, I don't want to be tired all the time".
My problem is that I really see his point and agree with him. I know if I were in his shoes at his age I would have done the same thing. But neither of us knows how much difference it makes to colleges whether you have the diploma (I know they don't know, but you can say you are a "diploma candidate) or if just ALL your core classes are IB.
Also, he has already completed all the CAS and done alot of work on his essay. He's worked so hard!
SOOOO - what do you think? Will it really make any difference to adcoms?
His fantasy schools are Williams, Dartmouth, Duke and Emory
his less fantasy schools are Trinity (TX), Whitman, Claremont McKenna
His SAT is within range and his uwGPA (all IB) is 3.9, top 5%of class of 500 in very large PS with 50% of grads going to college, mostly local. No one at his school as ever gone to any of the above colleges except Whitman.
We await your wisdom and experience!</p>

2

<p>I'm not really an IB parent. (I almost was, though. My son bailed on his school's inaugural IB cohort at the last minute, except for one class, as did most of his friends. I was one of a group of 10 parents of prospective students who met with the IB inspectors when the school was getting qualified, to show parental support, and exactly none of the kids of those parents are in the IB program for a diploma now.) Nor do I have any real idea about how college admissions people view IB. But here goes nothing:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What your son wants to do is completely rational. Why should anyone, including college admissions officers, look askance at him for it? The only real question is whether/how to address it in his applications.</p></li>
<li><p>What does he need an IB diploma for? IB is a nice idea, but, really, the diploma itself is next to useless everywhere, as far as I know. It certainly can't make a difference in college admissions during 12th grade.</p></li>
<li><p>I really like the idea of TOK, but scheduling it at 7:00 am, with a poor, untrained teacher, kind of takes the fun out of it. (My kid's school has the same scheduling problem, by the way.)</p></li>
<li><p>Before dropping the class, maybe your son should consult his guidance counselor. The one way this decision could hurt him is if the GC takes exception to it and presents it negatively in his recommendation, or fails to check the "most challenging" box. Consulting the GC is mature, realistic, polite. If the GC buys into the decision, great (and having the GC present it positively as evidence of maturity and independent judgment would be a modest benefit). If he doesn't like it, your son will be glad to know that before he drops the course, and he can then do further mature, realistic evaluation of his choices. He needs to get the GC in his corner anyway, so why not use this opportunity?</p></li>
</ol>

3

<p>bump please
Any IB experienced parents or college reps?</p>

4

<p>Diploma is really useless.</p>

<p>Colleges love the TOK class, but the diploma itself isn't even actually acquired until you've been accepted to a college. He's still taking the most rigorous courseload within the bounds of a normal school day, so he probably won't be penalized. It's unfortunate he doesn't want to drop IB Bio or IB Physics or something, tho', colleges really like to see you take TOK.</p>

5

<p>Thanks.
4 of 5 GC's quit at the end of last school year, so we don't know who his GC will be this year, and of course they won't know him :( but he WILL try to talk to them about their rec./forms.</p>

<p>What makes you say that TOK is especially helpful? He could take the "good" TOK if he dropped HL Bio, but then he'd have only two certificates instead of three and no college credit for Bio. He likes both TOK and Bio classes.</p>

6

<p>orjr:</p>

<p>What does your S want the IB certificates for? What does he want to study in college?</p>

<p>My understanding (and I'm not an IB parent, so please check with others who are more familiar) is that 3 IB certificates with scores of 6 & 7 will get you Advanced Standing at some colleges (but not all, as some do not grant AS at all). So having 2 or 3 certificates would not make a lot of difference.</p>

<p>TOK is indeed valued by colleges because this is the one course that teaches students to read critically and broadly and to write well. There is no equivalent in the AP program. So, if he was looking toward taking the TOK and had the possibility of taking it with the good teacher, he should go for it. The exception would be if he were planning to major in biology or pre-med, perhaps, but many students retake introductory biology in college.</p>

7

<p>About the time the TOK and the main IB essay were both due in D's senior year she threatened to drop out of contention for the diploma because of the time and effort. She got through it and was pretty proud of herself. You don't find out until July after you graduate whether or not you got the diploma, which is of course way too late for college apps. Most colleges that we talked to said that they just wanted to know that she was taking the most rigourous classes available. Most colleges will view the successful completion of individual IB classes the same way they view AP, and will look at the diploma not at all.</p>

8

<p>I am a former IB parent and your son sounds a lot like my older S who got the IB diploma from a large public HS 6 years ago. He was very proud of getting the diploma, considered it a major accomplishment, and got college credit for the HL courses, but many of his friends took IB courses and were not diploma candidates. Can't say that college admissions for the group seemed to be affected much by that factor alone. If his likelihood of admission is the only concern keeping your son on the diploma track, the diploma is probably not worth pursuing. The one place it might make a difference is for non-US universities.</p>

9

<p>IB parent here. The key to TOK is the extended essay, but IB History and English also require major papers. Colleges probably won't know he's not a diploma candidate unless he or the guidance counselor bring it to their attention; even then, they probably won't care. He's taking a rigorous courseload, including two IB sciences. The important thing is not to overburden him, since he'll have college applications, etc. on top of all the academics and extracurriculars. I would say he should choose - good TOK or IB biology - and move on.</p>

10

<p>ccobserver - the extended essay and TOK are not related. There is a separate, much shorter TOK essay requirement. EE is not part of a class, can be written in any subject. My EE was in History.</p>

<p>I just finished IB, received my diploma. I'm glad I stuck it out - the work was, of course, intense, but I think it was worth it. From the other side, if I were in your son's shoes I would probably take the early TOK and go for the diploma.</p>

11

<p>IB parent here. D just graduated and got her diploma. 21/23 candidates at her school earned their diplomas.</p>

<p>I can sympathize with your son's position. No one wants to get up early, earlier than everyone else, for a teacher he or she dislikes.</p>

<p>At Ds school, some of the students were very vocal about the fact that IB was more work because of EE and TOK, with no apparent advantage in admissions -- the most vocal were the ones who refused to undertake the curriculum and who just took AP classes. At the same time there is a large public HS in my county with with a very competitive IB program for the county. I hear they get 5 times as many applications as available slots. Obviously, more kids around here want it than there are slots available.</p>

<p>Many of my daughter's IB friends were also active in sports, clubs, drama, and so on. They all used to joke about it being no problem to call someone at midnight for homework help. If you were an IB student, you were awake. I don't think the raw workload was any more than a large number of AP classes. My son was not an IB student -- he was in a different magnet program at a different school. He was also up at midnight doing homework.</p>

<p>Because your son is almost done his EE, all he has to do is survive TOK. Since he is still taking IB classes, he will still have the exams, correct? Wouln't you say that except for TOK, he is >< (this close) to his diploma anyway. Also, EE and TOK are bonus points, so he could do average in TOK and not jeopardize his diploma if he is doing well in all other classes.</p>

<p>I guess there is some leeway in how different schools do some things. My daughter's TOK met in in evening, but the class was like once a month. I'm also sure the IBO wouldn't be too pleased to hear that a class was being taught by an untrained teacher.</p>

<p>My daughter is planning on studying abroad at least one semester. She's hoping that her IB diploma and score will help in university choice for study abroad.</p>

<p>She is really happy with her accomplishment. She would do it all over again. And at graduation, only NHS and IB candidates got to wear any extra stuff. You could pick out the IB candidates with their spiffy medals.</p>

12

<p>I recently learned that I got my IB Diploma this July and actually was glad I stuck through the program. Yes, you most likely won't get any brownie points for earning the diploma but the way of thinking is different relative to other AP classes and presented in way similar to college courses. After speaking to a few people who are already in college and have gone through the program, they proclaim that the rigors the program entails as well prepared for the material presented to them relative to the peers who took only AP classes.</p>

13

<p>Thank you everyone for your responses. To answer some questions:
Yes - he will complete all of the classes - three HL (Eng./ Hist/ Bio) and three SL (psych., Japanese, Math Methods) and one semester of TOK if he does NOT do the diploma. If he does stick with it, he will also do the other semester of TOK and the EE.
Why does he want it? Originally because it was the "top" - he likes being at the top of the academic food chain. He probably will not take advantage of credit opportunities. At this point he is willing to consider taking the early class if he has believable evidence that college adcoms care whether he just takes all the classes versus being able to say "I am a diploma candidate" in your application. But I think that would be his only convincing thing.
He will still have the great education and he certainly has learned to write well, do research and manage his time.</p>

14

<p>Another IB parent here. Nothing to add, just to say that completing a full IB program in a big public school is an amazing accomplishment--and an amazing grind. </p>

<p>I am proud that my d (also an athlete) completed the whole IB program, sleeping for a few hours here and there. She feels very well prepared to walk into any college in the universe. While this academic confidence is worth a lot, however, it came at a social and personal cost. </p>

<p>After much deliberation we elected NOT to send our younger son through the IB program. The level of unhappiness/frustration was just too much. </p>

<p>In terms of colleges, my D got into 6 of the 8 schools she applied to -- and her SAT/GPA numbers were very strong. I think some of the schools were impressed by the full IB degree, but only one school official said anything about it. She was wait listed at Williams and Swarthmore, will attend Wellesley in the fall, and was also admitted to Bowdoin, Middlebury, Grinnell, Whitman and Willamette. She got significant merit add from three of the schools, and a token amount ($3k) from Bowdoin. </p>

<p>I don't know what to suggest. My sense is that taking the IB classes is what is most important to adcom, not the degree. If he would be miserable, dropping the IB diploma may make life much happier. He would avoid the scheduling complication of TOK, along with significant time committment of completing the EE. Would you be o.k. with this?</p>

15

<p>Californian - you sound very much like us. We have been seriously thinking about advising our younger son not to do diploma.</p>

<p>Williams and Whitman are colleges on both of our kid's lists, and I agree, what he would gain by dropping the diploma is sleep, air to breathe, and more time to spend on his favorite EC - he is administrator for our city's first ever "Youth United Build" - a Habitat for Humanity house built totally by youth age 15+. He is helping to staff every Saturday from now until 5/07 and just finished writing a 5k$ grant for the project. When he said "I just want to not be tired all the time", I thought, I get it. But he wants to know what the cost is for giving it up.
chatting here has helped me!</p>

16

<p>Californian - is it too personal to ask if Whitman was one of the schools offering significant merit aid?
If so, please excuse me and thanks for your earlier post.</p>

17

<p>Is your son in IB simply because of the college boost he might get? I'm not going to mince words here. I also have a daughter. She is a senior and in IB. She started "prepping" for IB in 8th grade. Now that she is four years into IB, I would not counsel her to quit because of one class that lasts one semester.</p>

18

<p>I have a senior who is a diploma candidate with 4 HL subjects. Since the colleges we are looking at only give credit for HL subjects, we considered droppping the IB program to be able to replace an SL subject with an AP class. We were advised against this because the school would then have to say that the most rigorous program was not taken.
I thought that an AP class replacing an SL subject would show that the student sought more challenge, but a concerned teacher wrote to one of the colleges we were considering about this, and they did suggest that the IB program be continued.
And so, since the essay and CAS requirements were completed at the end of junior year, it just made sense to continue with the IB program.
If your son decides to continue with the IB, one way of reducing stress during senior year is to complete the Extended Essay and college essays during summer vacation.</p>

19

<p>Orjr, I am the parent of an IB diploma holder who is also a rising senior at Williams. To jump to the bottom line my advice to your son would be, stick with it!</p>

<p>Some comments: First, I’m so sorry to hear that your son’s TOK course is unsatisfying. My son had a GREAT TOK instructor, one of the top teachers in the worldwide IB organization in fact and this class was a highpoint of the whole program. TOK is a challenging topic. Leading young minds down complex and abstract philosophical paths requires finesse and experience and I can really empathize with the difficulty that your son is having with his lackluster instructor. The good news is that it’s half over and in the scheme of life the pain of enduring another three months of long days and frustrating assignments will fade over time.</p>

<p>Second, Will the diploma help in getting into reach schools? No way that we’ll ever really know. In my son’s case, I believe it did. He was an uneven candidate for Williams. Some aspects in his profile were VERY strong, some were just so-so. I think that being on the IB diploma track (of course he didn’t have it at the time of application) was one more factor that helped push him over the top into the accept pile.</p>

<p>We asked about how the IB is viewed by adcoms at each of the 12 or so information sessions that we attended and the opinion was unanimously positive. I think the European mystique is at play here and even those that don’t know much about the details acknowledge that the program is a good foundation for college level work.</p>

<p>Having said that, I would add that at my son’s high school which offered both AP and IB, there was no apparent difference between admissions success level for kids who did AP, IB diploma, IB courses or a combination of both. Top students got into to top colleges (and got rejected by the same) no matter what their curriculum choices.</p>

<p>Third, He’s so close! If he gave up now, wouldn’t he always feel a twinge of leaving an accomplishment unfinished? My son really enjoyed writing the extended essay and is still listing it as an accomplishment in applications for internships, special programs and I suspect for graduate school not too long from now. The biggest negative about the EE is that it was due at the same time as college applications which was very stressful (another reason that IB is better suited to the European system).</p>

<p>I would note that my son did have severe issues with one of his IB courses, a Higher at that. He and the teacher were on such an unpleasant collision course – exacerbated, I think, by the rigidity of the IB evaluation system – that he came close to dropping out of the whole diploma program. For someone who was contemplating starting on the IB route, I’d advise to weigh the positives and negatives. However, for someone like your son who’s more than halfway through, I’d still recommend slogging ahead.</p>

<p>Fourth, What are the benefits of completing the diploma? Sense of accomplishment, boost in admissions, enhanced analytic and writing skills, membership in an exclusive club, a red badge of academic courage. :)</p>

<p>Some schools give significant credit for high scores on IB exams. My son didn’t gain a single credit or an iota of acceleration at Williams even though he scored in the 6-7 range in all of his HL’s, so it’s not necessarily a case of “do IB and you will graduate in 3 years.” The benefits were more intangible than accountable.</p>

<p>Fifth, As a compromise, maybe he should drop HL Biology. Assuming that he has sufficient HL courses to complete the diploma requirements, I don’t think that having two instead of three certificates would make the least difference. Perhaps he could take AP Bio instead which would also offer college credit.</p>

20

<p>I have 2 sons who were involved in our local IB program. Both chose IB: My husband and I didn't force them to do it.</p>

<p>Older S (a smart guy who always hated school) did it because he knew it was the toughest program in the county, and he thought it would help greatly with college applications. He got the IB diploma by the skin of his teeth -- threw together his extended essay, passed courses by acing the finals. Got into 4 of 5 colleges that he applied to. This included 2 top 20 schools. Didn't get into Columbia -- I'm sure it was due to his grades, which were mediocre: His scores were high, ECs unusual and excellent. </p>

<p>Younger S ( a smart guy who always loved school) did it because he liked the small classes and not having to take PE. After visiting some colleges as a rising senior, he decided to drop IB because he wasn't sure if he wanted to major in engineering, but his IB schedule left no room at all for physics or another year of math (He had started h.s. math as a 7th grader and had finished his high school's offerings) , which colleges advised him he needed to have if he wanted to major in the sciences.</p>

<p>As a result of dropping IB, he was able to put lots more time into his favorite EC, and got countywide and other recognition for that. He also had a far more relaxed senior year than did his friends who stayed in IB. This was true even though he took 5 APs senior year including chemistry and physics. He decided not to apply to college (is taking a gap year), but I am sure that colleges won't care about his lack of an IB diploma. His reasons for not pursuing IB make sense. His EC accomplishments would stand out in a pool. </p>

<p>Anyway, my advice is that if your son has a thoughtful reason to leave IB -- and it seems that he does -- let him. He can use the time to excel in his ECs and to have some other fun in his last year of h.s. If he explains his decision on his app (and he might want to do this in the additional comments section), I don't think that his decision will hurt him.</p>

<p>One last thing: I have seen high achieving students who dropped out of IB for good reasons (ECs) do well in admission. One whom I know got into Oberlin and UNC as an out of stater.</p>