Help Understanding PSAT Rankings

Parents Forum
1

<p>So, I'm new to this and I'm trying to make sense of my daughter's scores. She got a 202, which as I understand it will probably mean she receives a National Merit Scholarship Commendation. That puts here above the top 5% or 55,000 out of 1,557,000 college-bound juniors. She has a 4.5 weighted GPA and about a 3.7 unweighted and will earn her IB diploma (I think!).</p>

<p>So, that all sounds pretty good to me. But from everything I'm reading, she has no chance at the most highly selective colleges. My question is, how many spots are there at these "highly selective" colleges? And which schools would be considered the "right" school for the 96th percentile?</p>

<p>I should add, she's not interested in the Ivies (maybe Cornell). We're from Boulder, CO and she's pretty laid back, most interested in LCs in the West (Reed, Occidental) or maybe some in the NE but we haven't really found any that she's crazy about yet.</p>

<p>I don't want to wait time and money (and hopes) on schools she won't get into but I'm confused when I read that 96% percentile is "not that good". Can anyone help me get my arms around this?</p>

2

<p>If you read around here you will see that there are a lot of factors that go into college admissions besides test scores and grades.</p>

<p>THat said, when it comes to the “standardized exam” component, the SAT and ACT are more important than the PSAT for college admission. I’m not sure if your daughter even has an SAT score yet, but many students improve significantly between PSAT AND SAT, and some do worse.</p>

3

<p>Okay first off, grades and test scores are only part of he application at highly selective schools. They wanted well rounded students who not only excel in the classroom, but pursue their passions outside of it as well. The scores that matter for college admissions are not the PSAT, but the SAT/ACT. The PSAT is used exclusively for scholarship purposes. Many schools also require SAT II’s, which are specific subject tests.</p>

4

<p>No school accepts students off the PSAT (though yes, some offer scholarships via National Merit Finalists and similar programs). Schools accept students, in part, based upon their actual SAT or ACT scores with some schools not even requiring those (not usually highly selective schools though, but some are selective).</p>

<p>If your daughter wants to be a solid candidate at very highly selective schools, then use her PSAT results to figure out where she might want to shore up her skills before taking the SAT. Also try the ACT as two of my three boys did better with that one.</p>

<p>BUT, does your daughter even want to try for the super selective schools? Can you afford them, or is your income low enough to make them affordable due to their need-based aid? Not all students want to head that route, nor does “success” in life require it.</p>

<p>YES, highly selective schools are just that. Some have acceptance rates < 10% and a good majority of those not accepted have super stats (think top 1 or 2%). Those with lower stats need a bit else going for them on the application to even be considered (sports, diversity, something).</p>

<p>When there are 1,557,000 (plus or minus as not all take the PSAT) students looking to go to colleges, 15570 will be in the top 1% just off the PSAT. Then add in those who study and do better on the SAT (a significant number) or simply make that top 1% with the ACT. Double those numbers for the top 2%, triple for 3%, etc. It’s a competitive world where MANY students have top scores even if there are relatively few in any average school.</p>

<p>Besides top stats (really, almost everyone has them at super selective schools), you’ll need nice extra curriculars too as these schools select a “class” not just “best scores win.” The scores just pass you over one bar to be looked at - there are many other aspects of the application.</p>

<p>But there are many, many good schools. I’m the parent of a top 1%er who didn’t even care to apply to any Ivy after considering them all. He’s happy at a Top 30 college that fits him well - and we appreciate the merit aid from his school. Few very selective colleges offer any merit aid.</p>

<p>My top 3%er is at a school few would recognize here on college confidential. It was his top choice - he got nice merit aid - and he’s doing well as a junior.</p>

<p>Honestly, not everyone who could compete for highly selective schools chooses to. Merit aid is often a big factor, but there are other factors too…</p>

<p>You and your daughter need to decide what path she wants to take. If highly competitive is in her plans, look to brush up on her test taking skills to help out (while making sure solid extra curriculars - esp leadership - are part of her life too).</p>

5

<p>Everyone’s definition of “highly selective” college varies. Even guidebooks that use this term define it differently. So, it’s not possible to tell you how many “slots” there are at “highly selective” colleges. </p>

<p>Moreover, test scores are only one part of the package for admissions. There ARE kids who were “only” commended at the very top schools because they had something else to offer. Because your D is from Colorado, she has a better chance of getting into some top colleges in the Northeast than kids who live in the Boston to DC corridor with the same scores have (unless they have something else going for them: URM, legacy, recruited athlete, etc.) </p>

<p>Plus, as others have said, lots of kids do better on the SAT than on the PSAT. Look at the score report and see where your D made errors. Are her wrong answers evenly distributed or was there one kind of question she just didn’t “get.” In the latter case, if she focuses on that type of question and puts in some effort, she may increase her score substantially.</p>

6

<p>your D’s PSAT score is irrelevant for college admissions. Colleges don’t even see PSAT scores. </p>

<p>For admissions, schools will consider some/all of the following:</p>

<p>SAT or ACT scores
GPA
rank
course curriculum in high school
course rigor
essays
Letters of Rec
ECs
Talent
URM status
State of residency
Gender</p>

<p>PSAT score isn’t considered.</p>

7

<p>It sounds to me like your daughter has the makings of a highly competitive college applicant. While PSAT scores are not part of the college application they are indicative of her ability to score well on SAT. She has a high GPA with course rigor and I’ll bet she is involved in outside activities and interests. I think she would be wise to investigate a variety of colleges and include some “reaches” in her search. My DS was admitted to his “reach” school as is thriving there. Good luck!</p>

8

<p>Your daughter may well get a higher score on the SAT my younger son went from 206 to 2140 I think. His grades were lower than your daughters. He got into good schools, but I think his essays and recommendations were the most help.</p>

9

<p>Thanks. I do understand that PSATs are not submitted to colleges but it’s our first inkling of where she may fall next year. I was just trying to understand what 96% percentile (assuming a high GPA and outside leaderships) means, after hearing “that’s not good enough” from several people. Thanks for your input.</p>

10

<p>

And the total freshman entering the Ivies in total each year is less than that 15,570. The Ivies do not pick students solely by test scores along however the total population of students is less than 1% of the froshes in the country. Another cut at the competition for top schools … there are about 30,000 high schools in the USA … if the Ivies only accepted Vals they still would only have room for about 1/2 of the Vals in the country.</p>

<p>There are many other top school other than the Ivies and there are many attributes other than SATs and GPAs considered … however the bottom line is there are a ton of VERY qualified students and not enough room for all of them at the top schools.</p>

<p>BTW - these means there are a ton of great students at tons of schools … students can have a great experience at many many schools.</p>

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<p>96% is great! But… for the tippy top schools (that may or may not be a good fit for your D), admissions are highly competitive. This website is a great place to get your feet wet, explore. Don’t get intimidated by that fact that there are so many high caliber students here - it’s not the typical cross section of America;) </p>

<p>Multiply the PSAT x 10 to get approx idea of SAT. Then check if your school guidance center has online Naviance. That would give an approximate indicator of how your hs grads (with SAT vs GPA grid) have done at various school. Obviously there are MANY other factors involved, but Naviance is a good starting point.</p>

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<p>*Thanks. I do understand that PSATs are not submitted to colleges but it’s our first inkling of where she may fall next year. I was just trying to understand what 96% percentile (assuming a high GPA and outside leaderships) means, after hearing “that’s not good enough” from several people. Thanks for your input.
*</p>

<p>It’s just an inkling. It’s not set in stone. Many kids don’t do well on the PSAT, and then score within 98/99 percentile on the SAT or ACT. </p>

<p>So, it doesn’t matter what others are saying now. While 96th percentile on the SAT or ACT is low for ivies, you really don’t know if that’s where she’ll score on those tests. </p>

<p>That said, 96th percentile is good enough for most schools. If your D ends up scoring somewhere in the 90th-97th percentile, she’ll still get into some very good schools. You need to relax. If you’re giving off a worried vibe, your D is going to feel that she’s disappointing you. </p>

<p>BTW…you’ve just had your first lesson. You shared your D’s PSAT score with friends, families or co-workers and got silly feedback. So, learn from that and stop sharing her stats with your social or work circle.</p>

13

<p>It depends on what you mean and which set of schools when you use the term “not that good”. Simple look at the math suggests that with about 15k students entering Ivy and probably a lot less than that for the top 10 LACs, a student with test score at the range of 55000th has a lot of competition and a lot of leap frogging to do to get into those schools considering that some of those admitted also have hooks with lower academic achievement and test scores. Bottom line, there are simply a lot of competitions.</p>

<p>However, I would not look at the situation as “that’s not good enough”. There is a place and perfectly good schools for a student with exceptional stat of 3.7 GPA and 2000+ SAT. It is not hopeless, and as many have suggested, SAT can be improved upon from initial PSAT score. Many kids were able to do much better on subsequent tests with more preparations and studies. Then there are ECs and other factors that you put on the applications that have a lot of effects. While it is ok to hope and try for some of the top schools, realistic expectation and proper choice of matches and safeties should ensure a successful search.</p>

14

<p>I’m with those who say don’t read too much into the PSAT, don’t let it become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and don’t sell your daughter short. It’s not uncommon for students to add 100 points or more to their SAT scores from what their PSAT would predict. Also keep in mind that many colleges “superscore” the SAT, i.e., they combine the applicant’s best CR score with their best Math score and their best Writing score from multiple sittings. So the middle 50% SAT scores you’re seeing for most selective colleges probably reflect superscores, which would skew a little higher than single-sitting scores.</p>

<p>Your D’s 3.7 unweighted GPA is more important than her weighted GPA, because high schools weight very differently (or in some cases, not at all), so colleges tend to use unweighted GPA. A 3.7 is good; a 3.8 would be better for admission to highly selective schools. It’s certainly possible to move the needle that much in a year. Also, keep in mind that some colleges will discount freshman year HS grades if there’s a strong upward trajectory. </p>

<p>Finally, if your daughter ends up with a 3.7 unweighted GPA and SAT scores similar to her PSAT scores, she’ll get into some very good colleges. Most of the fuss on CC is over the top 25-30 universities and top 25-30 LACs, out of some 3,000 or so four-year colleges and universities. SAT CR+M around 1380 (690 per section, about what you’d get from a 2060 with equal scores on all sections) would be somewhere in the middle 50% of enrolled freshmen at many top 30 LACs, and at or above the 75th percentile at many schools ranked in the #30 to #75 or so range. And the vast majority of colleges and universities in the country would be thrilled to have a candidate with your D’s stats.</p>

15

<p>Terrific advice from everyone so far.

  1. Great job to your D for her great grades
  2. Pick colleges based on good “fits” for your D and her personality. Don’t necessarily get swept up in selecting colleges based on on USNWR rankings.
  3. PSAT score is not reported to colleges. D will self report “commended” on her awards section of the common application; others will self report “NMSF”
  4. PSAT results will guide her studying for the SAT or the ACT
  5. As an indication that many factors involved in college admissions, out of the 16% of my D’s class that matriculated at HYPS, approx 1/3 - 1/2 of them were NOT NMSF (only 1 of non-NMSF was a recruited athlete), and there were many NMSFs who were rejected or deferred from HYPS. Thus, your D would not be completely out of the running for HYPS, but would have a very tough time getting admitted as will the rest of the other applicants.
  6. If she keeps up her stats, Oxy may be a safety or a match</p>
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<p>This is incredibly true. AND, remember, 95% of the rest of the PSAT juniors out there would have loved to have received her score (including my youngest who scored a good 20 points less). While I’d love for my youngest to have had scores similar to his older brothers, he won’t need them to get into the schools he wants to go to. There are “right” schools for every student who wants to go. I would not be disappointed in her score at all. She could be challenged to see how much better she could do on the real tests and/or she could be confident that she has the ability to get into many nice schools. Neither of you should be disappointed IMO.</p>

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<p>Your daughters score is very good. My son got a 180 on PSAT and with solid prep and hard work got 2240 on SAT. He was accepted to UPENN Early decision.My daughter got 223 on PSAT. She has an SAT score of 2190.We’ll see how much she improves on SAT in the spring. There is potential for anyone to improve.</p>

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<p>She will be competitive for many wonderful LACs. She needs to take the SAT, keep her grades up, show leadership and passion in her ECs and write some great essays. She will do well. Best of luck! Go Buffs!</p>

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<p>There are many more top test scorers than spots in elite colleges. Even perfect test scores are no guarantee in getting into the top colleges. Choose colleges that seem a good academic and social (ie other factors) fit when making the list. It is fine to have a dream school or two but don’t count on getting in even to a state flagship due to the high number of excellent students.</p>

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<p>Whether or not your kid qualifies for a National Merit Scholarship Commendation with the score she has, depends on the state you’re from. It’s different for every state. Search CC further to find out what last year’s cut off scores were from your state to get an idea as to how far up the National Merit ladder your kid might qualify.</p>