<p>You may be making an unfair assumption about the kind of education you would receive at William & Mary, UVA, or NYU. All three are fine undergraduate institutions, with outstanding faculties, outstanding facilities, motivated students, etc. The professors there mentor and assist students who show interest and ability in their fields. None of them is thought of in the US as a research institution where the professors are most concerned about their own work. For the most part, they are teachers first. The environments, of course, are unique for all of the schools on your and your parents’ lists, but the educational opportunities and the ability to grow are there for the students who take advantage of them. Frankly, even at the large state and private universities that are best know for their research, the motivated undergraduates get great educations (not just brand name degrees).
None of this means your parents are “right” about what’s best for you, but you should not dismiss the educational opportunities at the schools you seem to think will do nothing to help you grow as a person. All three turn out well-rounded scholars, doctors, lawyers, teachers, diplomats, and other leaders who benefitted greatly by having gone there as undergraduates.</p>
<p>Hi,
I agree with ac1981 that William and Mary, UVa, and NYU are all excellent schools. I think the difficulty you have with your parents is their unwillingness for you to attend a LAC or an university that does have their predefined “prestige” factor. What did your parents think when you applied to these schools? Although hindsight is 20-20, it seems that some of your differences with your parents could have been addressed during the application process, and then discussed in the ensuing months rather during the crunch time of April when you have to make a decision in a short period of time about schools none of you have visited. It certainly puts a lot of pressure on everyone in the family, especially you. </p>
<p>Each of these schools is distinctive in its own way. W and M is very similar to a top co-ed LAC (albeit larger in size) and located next to a historical town. UVa is a top state university, but partly due to the gorgeous architecture designed by Thomas Jefferson still has a cozy feel despite its size. At both places, fraternities play an important part of the social scene. NYU is a large urban school with great graduate programs. In terms of name recognition, it is probably the most recognized among all your choices so I suppose that is a selling point. Both UVa and NYU have top 10 law schools in the U.S. and a law degree from either place would be more highly recognized internationally than a law degree from NUS. William and Mary also has a good law school but it is not as highly rated as the other two. Smith, being a pure LAC, does not have grad schools except for a few students that may enroll in a handful of master’s programs that are available on campus. On the other hand, I would say that a strong student from Smith should be able to attend these or other top 10 law schools. I think your parents are right that for professional school, especially law school, where you get your degree is important, in order to land internships at top law firms or to impress clients. On the other hand, for undergrad, I contend that the quality of the education rather than the degree itself should have more importance. Of course, that is where you and I differ from your parents.</p>
<p>If you really are intent on attending a LAC, I would strongly consider W and M, as it would be most similar to Smith for a LAC-like education. In fact, some Virginians choose it over UVa for that reason. Smith is one of the largest LACs even though it has only 2600 students in total. It also is a women’s college which is a plus for some students and can be a negative for others. I presume you may have gone to an all women’s JC in Singapore. If so, you already may be used to a single-sex learning environment. Many women, like my daughter, found attending a women’s college enabled her to form close friendships as well as helped her develop her identity as woman competing in a male-dominated world. This issue, thankfully, is much less pressing than it was 40 years ago; however, support from profs, alumnae, and classmates (a type of old girls network) was invaluable for her both in college and afterwards. She was able to do some dating at Smith but she placed her education above that aspect of her life while in college. Still, schools like Smith, Wellesley, and Mount Holyoke are self-selecting; that is, most women who apply to and attend college there, very likely will share a similar view about their social lives as her. Those who feel they need to be in a co-educational academic and social environment will not even apply to these schools.</p>
<p>My advice: Talk with other Singaporeans at Smith. Find out if there are any Smith alumnae in Singapore. Talk with them. Perhaps they also may be able to share with your parents about their experiences during and post-Smith. They would provide the best insight and reassurance to your parents that going there would not diminish, but likely enhance, your future career objectives.</p>
<p>Yx, you can tell your parents that a recent Smith grad just got admitted to the PhD program in Economics at an institution called University of California, Berkeley. I suspect they’ve heard of it.
In the Top 3 in her area of interest, Top 5 overall.</p>
<p>More than 800 applicants, taking a class somewhere around 20-25.</p>
<p>As scientists, your parents should understand that they are not experts outside their field and that perhaps their understanding of American colleges and universities is incomplete. The Smith “brand” has no trouble at all.</p>
<p>@ac1981, I do know that those are schools that I should be more than happy to attend, if not I wouldn’t have applied for them. It is just that the way my personality is (timid, shy, easily intimidated) would mean that I won’t thrive in those schools as well as I wish I can. I’m thinking a smaller LAC can help me get past these barriers and make me more confident and outspoken.</p>
<p>@pmyen, My parents didn’t take the whole college process thing seriously. They let me apply to a ridiculous number of schools for the experience, they didn’t have the intention of letting me go to any school other than HYPMS, which I’m not qualified enough for. They even said that if they can give me $1500 to apply to all the schools I want to apply for, they can give me the $500 deposit for fun but still don’t let me attend. I just don’t get why they are doing this to me, giving me false hopes. </p>
<p>Now they are saying they will let me to to the US in May and have a look, then make a decision (this is following an very intense argument that ended in me crying so hard I had breathing difficulties… they’ve never seen me so pathetic before so they thought of a new way to make me happier - for a while). They probably think I’m going to be revolted by what I see and beg them to forgive me and then trot off happily to NUS Law. Even if that doesn’t happen, knowing them, they are just going to say, ‘Well, you’ve seen Smith already so you should be happy. Now go to NUS.’</p>
<p>Btw, I didn’t attend a girl’s school here. My PSLE score wasn’t high enough. I did have my reservations about women’s colleges but what I want is an educational experience, not parties and dating and what nots. Anyway most of my friends are females so I’m like in a single-sex bubble in a co-ed school. I’ve also heard of graduates of women’s colleges being strong and confident, so that is a huge selling point for me.</p>
<p>I do like W&M a lot, its the only non LAC that I’ve actually got an interest in attending. However, being a state school, there is no fin aid and everything so it’s pretty impossible to attend unless my parents start selling off their stocks (I swore never to touch those, and there’s not much in there anyway. It’s not even 2 years worth of tuition, room and board).</p>
<p>I’ll try and get a Smith alumni to talk to them, idk if she’s willing though. A Bryn Mawr graduate was willing to help me talk to my parents so I may be asking her to help me.</p>
<p>@TheDad, congrats to your D! You must be so proud. I will tell my parents about that. They got a friend in California to help them research on Smith and I don’t think it will go well because the friend has personally not heard of Smith before. Idk how his research will turn out but it is beginning to worry me. He is in the technology sector, working in Silicon Valley. Does Smith enjoy good recognition in that area? If the general consensus he gets is that Smith is unknown, then I’ll really have no hopes of attending Smith.</p>
<p>Smith is not as well known on the West Coast as the East but a lot of more highly educated people have heard of it. “Oh…one of the Seven Sisters” they’ll say and most are pretty impressed. </p>
<p>I have many clients who are professors at UCLA and when they see the Smith sticker on my rear window, they’re suitably impressed. People who sit on graduate admissions committees obviously know Smith very well. Btw, do tell your parents about Smith and Fulbright Scholarships…if Smith were as unknown as they say, Smith’s success should perplex them. </p>
<p>Also there is data somewhere about percentage of students pursuing PhD’s five years after graduation…Smith ranks highly on that.</p>
<p>Your parents’ techie friend may be more familiar with Carnegie Mellon or Harvey Mudd than Smith; you can tell him that Smith is just as strong but in different areas. If he doesn’t know Carnegie Mellon or Harvey Mudd (both very strong in engineering and the sciences), then he’s hopelessly illiterate on the subject of American higher education. You can’t tell him that but I wouldn’t bat an eye.</p>
<p>I told them about the Fulbright scholars thing but they seem to… not care. They are the very “I only want to hear what I want to hear” kind of peoeple.</p>
<p>Idk how familiar that friend is with colleges in the US. He is actually a very close family friend (from China) who did his graduate studies in the US. He’s been there for at least 10 years now. His two daughers are young, the older one is about 10 or 11, so he wouldn’t have started researching on colleges. Since they are not in high school he won’t have access to high school counselors too…</p>
<p>Hi again. Thanks for keeping us posted. I’m sorry about the tears and struggles but hopefully your parents are realizing the seriousness you have about your future education.</p>
<p>Congrats to the Dad. Your daughter certainly has been accepted to a great school-one that most educated people in China certainly have heard of. </p>
<p>On just this thread, you have heard about three recent grads who were accepted into highly-respected grad programs (I will need to check with D if she will let me reveal where she decided). These schools certainly have heard of Smith. I have served on several admissions boards for graduate and medical schools, and Smith applications get a close reading as graduates have done well at those schools. I think the Smith/Hopkins alumnae in medicine list, I put up for Upbeat, speaks for itself. And that is just Smith’s connection with one school!</p>
<p>I wonder whether one or both of your parents could go with you when you visit schools in the U.S… This way, they and you can become better informed about the schools you are considering, and subsequent discussions on where to attend will be made on real observations. Hopefully, those discussions can be more civil for all of you. Are the you an only child? If that is the case, I think they would want to be even more sure that their financial “investment” in your education is a good one. I am going back to the U.S. soon and a multi-stop economy ticket costs about $1700 SD ($1400 USD). It’s not cheap but certainly not a lot of additional expense beyond what you would spend on your trip. It can also be a very nice daughter-parent bonding trip. I think each of my kids had good memories of visiting colleges in high school with me. I certainly did. I think if they can see for themselves what types of educational opporunities are offered (I would advise visiting all four schools you mentioned), they may decide to change their minds.</p>
<p>You mentioned that your goal would be to work in the U.N. Here is some info I found on the web of Smith grads currently working in international relations as well as some of their interesting bios. This is not my area so I am sure there are other prominent women I missed quickly looking up Smith College and U.N. on google. My point is that a Smith degree will get you where you want to go in international relations-perhaps faster and farther than a degree from NUS. With the latter, it is possible that you may be able to get a position in the ministry of foreign affairs in Singapore and then eventually try to work your way into international organizations. However, there is no guarantee that one would move up that system. Moreover, you might even be overlooked as rising stars are generally students sent abroad for foreign degrees and pre-groomed for ministry careers (e.g., A*StAR scholars). I don’t know how easy it would be to crack into that group graduating directly from NUS. I think if you can earn a graduate or law degree at a high ranking U.S. school you would have better opportunities within the ministry in Singapore or in an international organization such as the U.N. However, I do admit I speak with ignorance. If you know any Singaporeans working in the U.N., World Bank, ASEAN Foundation, etc. they may be better able to advise.</p>
<p>[Smith</a> College: NewsSmith](<a href=“http://www.smith.edu/newssmith/spring2008/influence.php]Smith”>Smith College: NewsSmith)
[url=<a href=“http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/125492.htm]Pandith”>http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/biog/125492.htm]Pandith</a>, Farah<a href=“Fara%20Pandith”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.usunesco.org/AM_08312006_Ambassador.cfm]The”>http://www.usunesco.org/AM_08312006_Ambassador.cfm]The</a> Ambassador’s Biography<a href=“Louise%20Oliver”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/transcripts/0312.html]Facing”>http://www.carnegiecouncil.org/resources/transcripts/0312.html]Facing</a> the Crises of our Time: The United Nations and the United States in the 21st Century<a href=“Gillian%20Sorenson”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.cambodia/2008-05/msg00190.html]The”>http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Soc/soc.culture.cambodia/2008-05/msg00190.html]The</a> President intends to nominate Carol A. Rodley to be Ambassador Extraordinary and Plenipotentiary of the United States of America to the Kingdom of Cambodia<a href=“Carol%20Rodley”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“NameBright - Coming Soon”>NameBright - Coming Soon]MEMBERSHIP</a> OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UN GENERAL ASSEMBLY’S TASK FORCE FOR THE HIGH-LEVEL PLENARY MEETING OF THE SIXTY-FIFTH SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY - United Nations - Non-governmental Liaison Service<a href=“Heather%20Grady”>/url</a>
[url=<a href=“http://www2.haas.berkeley.edu/Faculty/tyson_laura.aspx]Haas”>http://www2.haas.berkeley.edu/Faculty/tyson_laura.aspx]Haas</a> School of Business<a href=“Laura%20Tyson,%20head%20of%20President%20Clinton’s%20council%20of%20economic%20advisors”>/url</a></p>
<p>In the meantime, keep hanging in there!</p>
<p>You really have a wealth of info - I almost felt apologetic that you had to research so much just for me. I really really thank you.</p>
<p>I will be going with my father. He is going on a business trip to Chicago in May so we’ll most probably visit at the end of Apr hopefully (while classes are still in session!). This trip is basically to let me compare Smith and NUS, though I think it is more of a trip to let him see a LAC for himself because I’ve pretty much made up my mind. Going to UVA/College of W&M would be quite out of the way so I’m not sure if we can visit. NYU is easy because anyway we have to either rent a car or transfer at either of the NY airports. </p>
<p>I’m not a single child, though I was raised one. My sister is only only 5 years old, so in a way we have 2 'single child’s in my family. I think a two-way ticket costs more about SGD2800, excluding transport costs from NY to Smith so it is pretty expensive. I was quite apprehensive about this trip because since Smith declined to increase my fin aid, our finances will be very tight, everything has to be planned carefully. I guess if this money can change my dad’s opinion that it would be more than worth it, just that I’ll have to start punching my calculator to reallocate funds again…</p>
<p>I do want to work in the MFA very much - I applied for the PSC scholarship but I really have very low hopes of getting it because my academics weren’t consistently stellar, I had no leadership positions, and I wasn’t the most loved by teachers since I was so quiet. I’ll fight my way there though. I’m like this, if you deny me something, I’ll get it somehow and make the people who denied me regret their decision. However this is going to be difficult as you’ve said, because there is a special track for scholars and unfortunately the non-scholars are going to take a longer time to get to the same place.</p>
<p>My goal is to continue doing grad studies after undergrad, but my parents expect me to work because they’ll have no resources left to send me to grad school. Do you know anything about scholarships and funding for grad (I’m looking at law) school? I think if they know they know that I have a means of attending grad school without depending much on them, they may be more at ease with letting me do my undergrad at Smith.</p>
<p>I know what you’re going through. My husband belongs to an international research community, and so we regularly entertain visitors from Asia and Europe. Several of them have questioned why we “let” our daughter attend a college like Smith instead of a “real” university. We’ve had to explain that undergraduate education in the US is different from what is found in other countries, that top-notch education is available at small as well as large schools and that some small colleges (like Smith) actually provide more rigorous academics than some of the universities they’ve heard of. I can tell that they don’t entirely buy it, so I know the challenge you face. If you have to pull the prestige card, then simply tell them that many former first ladies attended Smith. Until the 1970s when the Ivy schools went co-ed, it was the equivalent for women of attending Harvard or Yale. It has suffered in recognition since then, but not in academics. We know professors/administrators at Princeton, Brown, and Yale who were VERY impressed that our daughter was attending Smith. Yeah, it’s not HYPSM, but it’s the liberal arts equivalent of them.</p>
<p>Probably the most important thing to convey to your parents is that “college” in the US is not for people who didn’t get into a university, as it is in many other countries. Smithies can compete with the top students from anywhere in the country. All you have to do is look at how many of us have daughters in PhD programs at major US universities.</p>
<p>As for your other questions, law school in the US is expensive, but a PhD education is generally free. Smith has a strong government department with an excellent career/internship network. </p>
<p>I won’t lie and say that Smith’s name is well-known throughout the country. Heck, even here in the Northeast, people ask, “Where is that?” But the people who matter – academics, high-powered employers, and others who know higher education – know that Smith is known for graduating articulate, confident, ambitious, and intelligent women.</p>
<p>@momwaitingfornew</p>
<p>Yes, it is soooooo frustrating that the liberal arts system is so fantastic yet so unknown globally. I hate this. People should realize that education is not a straight path with everything laid out, it is about exploration.</p>
<p>My parents will never be impressed with famous alumnis. They dismiss them as one off examples even if the one off examples add up to a lot. It is just them.</p>
<p>I’m thinking that if law school is really not impossible, I can try to get into a PhD program first and put law school off until I become financially indepedent. I’m thinking Tufts would be a good option for my interests, and the general consensus I get that is that if I work hard at Smith, I will be the one picking schools and not the other way round.</p>
<p>I think the different degrees of recognition is what my parents are afraid of. Whether I impress people all depends on the type of person that I meet. If a HR manager I meet knows only HYPMS, then I’m dead meat. If they know about the higher ed system in the US, well then maybe I’ll become one of their treasures.</p>
<p>A lot depends on what you do with your opportunities. It’s possible to graduate from Smith (or from Harvard, for that matter) with nothing more than decent grades. But if you use Smith as a resource, you will have some fantastic opportunities. Meeting the minimum requirements and nothing else should not be an option. </p>
<p>It think it’s far too early to be planning graduate/professional school, although certainly your course selection should play into the possibilities. Keep in mind that a PhD takes 5-6 years to complete. Law school takes 3 years. </p>
<p>I’m curious. How did you hear of Smith? What made you apply?</p>
<p>For what it’s worth, my d. attends graduate school at Princeton. There are hundreds of candidates for 4-6 slots a year in her program. In the last three years, not one - repeat: not one - of the successful applicants came from HYPSM or any Ivy League school. And it’s not for lack of applicants. (And, among the faculty, there is only one professor who attended an Ivy League school as an undergraduate.)</p>
<p>For additional information about Smith’s success with graduate school, my daughter is aware of a senior who was accepted at and who will be attending Oxford University in England this fall, one of the most prestigious and esteemed universities in the world. So if Oxford can accept Smith, surely your parents can.</p>
<p>@momwaitingfornew</p>
<p>My high school had a counselor from the US Education and Info Centre to come down and talk us through the admissions process and the types of essays required (usually people in Singapore apply for both UK and US unis, and the admissions essays couldn’t be more different). Because we were internationals (and rather poor ones at that), a lot of us needed schools that can offer us financial aid. The counselor then suggested that women’s colleges are excellent institutions that offer generous aid to international students. So basically the money part made me apply. I initially applied to Smith just for the fun of it and didn’t do much research on it. I was more keen on Bryn Mawr because of the whole ‘living in castles/hogwarts’ comments and how close it was to haverford, plus the academics of course. But somehow after all the decisions came down I just gravitated towards Smith and realized how fantastic it was.</p>
<p>I think as long as I find what I love at Smith, I’ll do great. I’m that kind who can fail organic chem when if I put in more effort, I can get an A easily simply because I hate organic chem (urgh let me emphasize the hate). Conversely, I’ll be obsessed with what I’m interested in and get an A without putting in much effort.</p>
<p>I like to plan my life so… I always have this schedule that NEVER gets followed. I actually think doing a PhD will be quite fun, more so than law school. PhD is primarily research on something that I love so I’m going have so much fun doing it. It won’t feel like studying at all.</p>
<p>@mini</p>
<p>that program sounds VERY elite haha. I think sometimes the elitism in HYPMS will make some people discouraged. Some will thrive in those kind of environment while others just fall apart so… it really depends on the individual. Also, its harder to stand out in elite undergrad schools so that may be a factor too.</p>
<p>@CarolynB</p>
<p>Again, they will dismiss it as an one-off example. That’s what I hate about them. There are so many one-off examples I mentioned that it makes this whole gang of over-achievers and they still say one-off examples don’t count. It gets me really really annoyed</p>
<p>I think we will be visiting during commencement. They are letting me pay the deposit but not necessarily letting me attend. Oh well it’s still a step closer I guess. I’m going to make them promise that they will respect my decision (which obv is Smith). I’m going to schedule an appointment with the career development office with my dad so hopefully that will help…</p>
<p>By the way, how is it that we can skip graduate school and just skip from undergrad to PhD? My parents and I have always thought that it’s a process from bachelors to masters to PhDs. They didn’t believe me when I told them that after Smith I can just go straight into a PhD program which won’t cost them much. Also, how common is it for Smithies to go straight into PhD programs after graduation from Smith?</p>
<p>During commencement!!! You’ll be lucky to find a hotel room – and most are triple the price during that time. You’d be much better off arriving a couple of weeks before that.</p>
<p>@momwaitingfornew yes I know but there is no choice… My dad is going for a business trip near Chicago in May so we’re squeezing in the visit before that. If not it will impossible to visit. I’ve asked the admissions officer and she asked me to look into Springfield, about 20 minutes away from Smith. Well I won’t want to visit if I had it my way, because its a ridiculous 24 hour plane ride, probably >US$4000 including air tickets and rooms and car rental, and not to mention a head-splitting 12 hour time difference. My dad insists I have to look at Smith first though I think it is more for him to realize that Smith is not the scam school that he thinks it is.</p>
<p>In my d’s program, in her year, she was the only one without a masters degree, who went straight from undergraduate to Ph.D. program. And she was prepared. When the language people found out she’d done Italian at Smith, they waived the exam. She got the equivalent of two years of Princeton German credit for her one year at Smith. However, in other subjects, it is more common to go from undergraduate to Ph.D. program (a masters degree is given if you leave the program). In addition to free tuition, she is paid very, very well.</p>
<p>“Also, its harder to stand out in elite undergrad schools so that may be a factor too.”</p>
<p>No, since the students at HYPSM are certainly as good as those at Smith, the lesson is that the admissions people simply thought the students not from HYPSM were better prepared. (I mean, they didn’t even accept a single one from Princeton - and the faculty already knew them.)</p>
<p>Re Masters, it depends on the field. In Engineering, you can get a Masters and then get a PhD. In Social Work or Fine Arts, a Masters is a standalone degree, i.e., a “terminal Masters.” But in many fields, from Econ to Physics, a Masters is a consolation prize for not finishing a PhD.</p>
<p>Will your Dad be here long enough that we can give him a three-week course on American Higher Education? Right now, he’s a remedial student. It’s not so much that he doesn’t know, he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know.</p>
<p>The CDO may not be open during commencement, and anyway, it would be highly unusual for them to meet with a prospective student, but I guess you can go ahead and try. Just remember that during commencement things will be very topsy turvy all over campus, and if I recall correctly the normal guided tours may not be running (check with the admissions office) so you may just have to pick up a map and an info guide at the office and give yourself a tour, in which case you wouldn’t be able to see the inside of the student houses. But if that’s the only time you can go, then i guess you had better go then. Good luck!</p>
<p>yxyxyx, will you want to have a tour during your visit? If so, then you will have to nail down the admissions office to arrange a tour. Because there are so many events happening during Commencement, the admissions office may need you to be very specific about the day and time so they can arrange for a tour guide (maybe it will be my daughter!).</p>
<p>Well, on the bright side, if you come at Commencement time, your father will see all the energy, love, traditions and ceremony that IS Smith, and maybe your father will be impressed. And as far as you’re concerned, that’s what you want. Great idea you had to meet with the career development office!</p>