My S18 is pondering his acceptances and it’s been slow going. Choices are Whitman (coa 55k), Kenyon (coa 68k), St Olaf (coa 49k), Denison (coa 41k). The coa’s listed are after aid (if any). S18 is looking for a solid english program, with either a minor/emphasis in creative writing, but he is open to explore other majors (hence his attraction to LACs). Additionally has some affinity to psychology. Would like to use undergrad as gateway to growth as well as grad school.
We’re are in northern california, but S does not have any issue with weather or location, doesn’t mind small towns. Likes the outdoors, mildly sporty (running, cycling), mid-range personality that leans toward the quirky/quiet side. Parents are ok with the travel to these schools.
[as an aside, also accepted at Mac (full pay) and Lawrence (coa 36k)… seems to be leaning away from Mac, and liked Lawrence… perhaps will replace one of the above schools, but lower in preference presently]
He’s visited and attended classes at all, and says they are all tightly grouped in rank, but if pushed says Kenyon, Whitman, St Olaf, and then Denison. It feels like we’ll either have to flip coins or provide more “parental guidance”.
Really, it will come down to fit. All of these schools–Macalester and Lawrence included–are essentially peer institutions. I could not say that one is clearly above another. Denison used to have a reputation as party central (Greek like is fairly visible there), but I think that rep has calmed some. St. Olaf’s religious affiliation (though the school is open to all) means that drinking, though it does occur, is not as rampant. Kenyon is gorgeous but isolated (for some, this could be a plus). Lawrence has a strong music program (Olaf too), but it’s in frozen Appleton, WI.
Whitman is very popular, and if it weren’t in Walla Walla (nothing wrong with WW, but the Pacific NW already gets ignored from those who live east of the Rockies) it would be insanely difficult to get into. One criticism of Whitman is its lack of diversity (1% African-American), though that might not be an issue for many. I’ve always admired Whitman from afar.
Don’t make this too difficult. Wherever your son goes, he’ll be fine. Years later, he’ll look back and wonder why the college decision process was so stressful. Yes, it’s an important choice–four years to grow academically, personally, and socially–but there are many, many LACs that fit the bill.
I also have a soft spot for St Olaf. One of the kindest places I have ever experienced. Nice wholesome students, great music, and a reasonable contingent of both sporty and nerdy/quirky.
I personally would take a closer look at Lawrence as I see it as somewhat similar to St Olaf (minus the religious affiliation).
Denison seems a bit more sporty/Greek/party oriented than the above three but there is enough variety that I think anybody would be able to find like minded people.
When we dug deeper on the Mac website, it seemed like there were a lot of non tenure-track faculty, at least in departments of interest for my kid. That was a modest concern for us.
Didn’t visit Whitman but the physical location is lovely and kids are said to be very happy there.
Thank you @Hapworth and @mamaedefamilia , I appreciate your viewpoints on this as although we parents have labored over this for some time, we have only achieved limited understanding. I think it does have to do with the schools being peers in many ways, albeit with their own flavors.
From a parent’s POV, I like St Olaf for fit (and we liked Lawrence a lot… but S didn’t put it in his top 4), Whitman and Kenyon for academic vibe, and Denison for its upward momentum as well as some acclaim for its writing programs. (the Kenyon dilemma for writing was the “qualifying” for intermediate writing classes… which even John Green failed to pass ) The other aspect is that Kenyon would probably blow the whole 529 savings on the 4 years, but we are trying very hard to not let that be a concern despite (hopefully) grad school being part of the picture. Oh, and St Olaf doesn’t seem to support a capstone like the others, albeit honors is available.
Current Denison parent – greek life is not different at Denison than it is at Kenyon – both report about 25% male participation and higher female participation, and both are non-residential. Kenyon described that it reserves clusters of dorm areas for members from the same greek life chapter to live together – this was from a greek life tour guide at Kenyon, so we took it as true but never heard from administration on that. Denison does not do that, though small groups of greek life members can probably manage to live near each other but, with the vagaries of room draw, its not really possible for a lot of members to live on the same hall. What my musician/artist/athlete kid came to prefer about Denison, and what made it rise on his list, was that there really was no dominant type of kid – sure, there are lax bros, but there are bearded, bluegrass playing environmentalists living on the Homestead (the organic farm), acapella kids, filmmakers, etc. The merit awards draw highly talented “doughnut hole” kids. Academics are tough, professors caring, President Weinberg is doing amazing work in supporting transformation of the school. BUT, if someone loves the remoteness of Kenyon and the pristine sense of a small community, then I’m not going to try to talk them into Denison! It really is about fit.
Setting aside subjective “fit” factors, your best choice appears to be either Kenyon (for English department quality) or Lawrence (for net cost). How committed is your son to majoring in English? How much does an extra $32K/year mean to your family?
For an outdoorsy, sporty person, IMO Whitman could be a very attractive compromise. But since they’re all similar, peer schools, the Lawrence price tag would be hard for some families to pass up.
Thank you for your thoughts @Midwestmomofboys Do you have an inkling as to how the writing program at Denison is regarded? President Weinberg (we listened to his presentation of the school vision a couple of times) seems to hold it in good regard, so I was curious how others felt.
Thank you as well, @tk21769. English has been the subject that he’s been consistently putting his effort into and he likes to write in his spare time. Not having pursued any “official” writing competitions, it’s hard for him to gauge where he’s at with his peers (although my very spotty reads of his writing show some promise, albeit inconsistent). His friends and teachers seem to encourage him though. I don’t know what major he’ll graduate with, but I’m backing him in his choice of english.
We have three kids, and dreaming that all will go to grad school; at this point, at least one of them will have to receive good aid/in-state tuition for us to have enough funds to pull this off. S18 was not one who would fit well at the publics in-state, as good as they are. Our other children might. So 32K means something to us, but we can “afford” it for now.
You can’t separate this decision from future decisions you will make concerning your other kids. You can’t tell this kid money doesn’t matter and later tell the youngest they can only go the state U, or sorry, there’s no money left for grad school. Well, you can, but it could destroy your family.
In your case, since your son does not have a strong preference, and all the schools are very good, I say follow the money, at least to the point of choosing Denison over the other front runners. Since you can afford it, I would not push him toward Lawrence unless he decides to upgrade it in his ranking (even though I consider it an equally good choice). He should not have a problem with majors anywhere.
When it’s hard to make a decision, it generally means there is very little difference, but for you one notable difference is money. I don’t think you will feel quite so blase about blowing the whole 529 when you are trying to make college plans with the other two kids.
@chippedtoof My kid is not a creative writing/English kind of guy, so I haven’t observed any direct experience. At the same time, I have heard Margot Singer, the English Professor and novelist, speak, and she is inspiring.
A student who is pursuing a Ph.D. program should expect to be funded so that they are tuition free, but in popular fields like English and History, students are sometimes expected to self-fund a Masters program before they are admitted as funded graduate students in a Ph.D. program. So saving funds at the undergrad level is a relevant consideration, though I don’t think a student should just choose cheapest option regardless of other considerations.
@chippedtoof : Just checked some rankings of colleges & universities for writing & creative writing.
University of Iowa was #1 for overall writing program.
Northwestern University #1 for creative writing.
Columbia, Emory, Oberlin, Brown, Johns Hopkins, Hamilton College, WashUStL also were highly ranked.
The University of Iowa has long been regarded as the top writing program in the nation, to the best of my knowledge & recollection, and runs $39,000 for non-residents.
If he wants to write, have him check out what kind of writing the faculty members do. If it’s stuff he admires, that’s helpful to know. Also look at Rate My Professors to get an idea of teaching styles.
@alooknac , yes you are correct. I think I miscommunicated, making the financial decision to keep kenyon in the mix sound a bit too easily made. We’ve been thinking long and hard about it (ever since he chose to apply), and it’s part of the reason I’m asking here for more opinions. There are other pathways for us that can prevent the worst case scenario you described, but in any case, your concern is very valid and is something my spouse and I are in discussion regarding how to present the situation to S18. I think I just thought about it so much that it came out as if the financial decision was a straightforward one.
@Midwestmomofboys Thank you, that helps as I somehow missed Prof Singer’s background.
@Publisher Thank you for looking this up. I believe we were considering several of those for potential grad locations, although difficult. Iowa was definitely on that list. For undergrad, my S’s numbers don’t quite add up to being competitive at those places except perhaps Oberlin and Iowa.
I’m gathering based on everyone’s replies that these choices (other than the full-pays) are sufficiently balanced that this should be a lower stress decision based more on fit and then finances. I’m going to phrase Kenyon as a choice only if there is a strong enough pull in that direction that justifies our family facing the financial music.
Perhaps @mamaedefamilia or others familiar with St Olaf could comment: Do you have any opinions regarding St Olaf’s english department? I only spoke to one of the admissions helpers who was majoring in english and we glanced at the great classrooms My S is interested in the Conversations and Prof Nagamatsu (based on a recommendation from our tour guide when we mentioned writing).
Kenyon’s distinctive national reputation rests partly on the strength of its English department. Costs aside, it would be an excellent choice. With costs considered, Denison, also based on the strength of its English department, could be a good choice as well.
Those COAs are ridiculous for one relying on a 529 account.
Iowa’s application deadline is May 1st.
Consider applying to the University of Iowa. Full cost without merit award is $39,000 per year. Would be worth taking a gap year, work as a writer–paid or unpaid–then reapply if not admitted this year to Iowa.
P.S. Otherwise consider asking Kenyon College to meet Denison’s COA.
@chippedtoof My D is in 2nd year of the Great Conversations program at St Olaf. She can’t speak about the English Dept (not in that dept) but she has really enjoyed Great Con. Frosh year, the program is divided into 2 groups of about 50-60 students. One group lives in Killdall and the other in Ellington dorms. The program is full of students who love to read and discuss philosophy and ‘great works’. You can find description of the 5 courses (4 semesters and 1 interim) in the 2-yr Great Con program by searching online. Reading is about 70-100 pages every other day with 3 research papers per semester. At the end of the 2 years, 2-4 students are chosen for the “Great Conversation Student of the Year” merit scholarship.
I don’t know your family’s financial situation, but since you have more children to put through college, I would definitely look at how cost could affect you over a series of years. It can sometimes be too easy to look at these numbers abstractly and very emotionally.
Just channelling my financial advisor here. . . The hard thing is that we always want to do the absolute best for our children–but they also will appreciate not having to support us in our old age. The difference between 41K and 68K a year is quite a bit (at least for most people).
All great choices. We visited 3 of the 4 options identified.
There is simply no rational way to justify spending an additional $108K for the difference between Kenyon and Denison. They are both excellent schools with similar programs, and if your S applies himself he will achieve all he can at either school.
18 year olds have no conception as to what it takes to save $108K. That is likely over $160K of earnings before the tax man cometh. If grad school is likely, he will thank you later for you help in making a sensible tie-breaking decision now.
Are you able to do any follow up visits? Getting the chance to spend a day on campus, attend a class or two in the English department, etc. might help to clarify preferences. This was crucial for my daughter when she made her decision.
I can’t speak to St Olaf’s English department. The Great Conversations program, already amply discussed by @liska21, was attractive to my child.
Given the fuller financial picture, if it were me and schedule and finances allowed, I’d revisit Lawrence, Denison, and St Olaf. If you care about rankings, Lawrence and St Olaf are neck and neck on UWNWR. Denison is a bit higher and Kenyon is the highest, but I don’t know if it justifies the upcharge.
Regarding Iowa, if you are considering a last minute application, I know they do offer merit scholarships to OOS students although I don’t know if any of that money is still available. Beautiful campus in an attractive small city.
Whatever you choose, you should be very proud of your son - excellent choices!
@Publisher I know kids who have tried that but Kenyon hasn’t been matching Denison’s offers. I guess the OP could always try but I don’t think Kenyon (rightly or wrongly) does not consider Denison a direct competitor. Kenyon merit much harder to get than Denison’s.
) The other aspect is that Kenyon would probably blow the whole 529 savings on the 4 years, but we are trying very hard to not let that be a concern despite (hopefully) grad school being part of the picture. Oh, and St Olaf doesn’t seem to support a capstone like the others, albeit honors is available.