Here's what I'm thinking, and please help me decide: Harvard or Yale?!?

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello Enlightened Parent!</p>

<p>So I’m narrowing down my college options and now I’m really stuck between two schools, Harvard and Yale. My friends and family are quick to point out that these are both great schools, but I still have to decide between them by Monday! =) </p>

<p>First off, I have no idea what I want to study. At all. While I hope to end up in business someday, I'm told that that could be achieved by majoring in history just as much as it could economics. As such, I'm not really trying to compare department vs. department. Also, the costs for both of these schools is similar and affordable, so we can leave that out of the equation for now.</p>

<p>I’d really appreciate comments from anyone remotely familiar with either of these two schools! I apolgozie for my long post, though I hope my detailed elaborations (and your replies) can be used by future students making a similar choice. </p>

<p>Here are some of my thoughts on them both, by category:</p>

<p>Setting
New Haven is no Cambridge. There’s no question that there would be more to actually DO in the Boston area, more organizations to become involved in, more cultural events, etc. I like to keep busy, and so having such rich and diverse opportunities really appeals to me. New Haven is not nearly as “happening” by comparison (though New York is not too far)!</p>

<p>Sense of Community / School Pride
I found Yale to be overflowing with school pride and Harvard to be almost the opposite. I asked many students at Yale if they loved Yale and the response was always “Of course I love Yale!” At Harvard, responses varied from, “Yeah, I guess...” to “Well, I like Harvard...” to “It just takes some getting used to...” That said, I noticed that the more involved a student was at Harvard, the more s/he seemed to love the place.</p>

<p>There seems to be two distinct cultures at the schools... Yalies seem to actually have a culture of “loving Yale” – which could be either artificial or genuine (or a mix – see below). By comparison, one Harvard student I talked to lamented the “culture of unhappiness” that she observed. Was she just being more honest than the “brainwashed” Yalies were? I don’t know... However, it sure did seem like Yalies enjoy</a> themselves more. </p>

<p>Someone once told me, “you're not paying 40k a year for the education so much as the connections you can make” – and if this is true, it seems Yale has a large edge. Another friend had an interesting take on this, though:
[quote]
When I think about this, I think about selection bias: incoming Harvard students are not the same as incoming Yale students because the decisions about where to go are all made by people like you. Now, Yale sells itself on the role it plays in catalyzing the "ideal" college experience. Consequently, it recruits people who need that reassurance at a higher rate than it would if it did not make that a primary selling point. Such people are less likely to feel sure about their ability to generate a healthy social circle around them. This generates a perception that Yale's nurturing deserves credit, partly based in reality, partly based in believing that the Freshman-you is the same as the Senior-you in everything but academics... Not so. People break out of their high-school-era stigmas pretty quickly. They find that, without it being already known "who they are" that they can be pretty much anyone they want to be. Yale's activities count for less than Yale would have you believe.

[/quote]
**This is the part I’m definitely struggling with the most... how much should I value a strong sense of “community” and the “ideal college experience?” How much of Yalies’ obsession with Yale is genuine/warranted and how much is it a product of social dependencies? Etc?</p>

<p>Academics**
This one seems a non-issue. The professors at Harvard (might) have a slight edge over those at Yale, but Yale loves to tout its “undergraduate</a> focus” and slightly smaller classes. Harvard offers more freshman seminars (a Summers initiative). Considering all of this, I can’t imagine that there is a substantial difference in the qualify of education. Harvard has some nice options, such as cross-enrollment at MIT for techy or business classes, which might be a nice option to have. Yale requires 36 courses instead of 32, but has more lenient distribution requirements... I don’t know – this category seems like a wash to me.</p>

<p>Harvard Houses vs. Yale Residential Colleges
Yale’s Residential College system is simply amazing... people there LOVE their colleges and I like how each one has a game room (pool, ping pong, etc.). By comparison, Harvard’s House system seems to bring about comparably less loyalty and the communities don’t seem quite as close-knit. Also, while I know that some students love the Harvard blocking-system, it seems as though it would make the Houses very clique-y from sophomore year on...</p>

<p>Though I’m a very social guy, these large schools seem... impersonal, hence my liking of the small communities within. Is this legitimate? Or, am I doing myself a disservice by making a decision based on my supposed uncertainty “about [my] ability to generate a healthy social circle” around myself? (from quote above)</p>

<p>"Center of the World" Effect
One thing that really stands out to me about Harvard is what I call the “Center of the World” effect. Harvard is a destination, much more so than Yale. For example, in my AP Euro class we learned that the Marshall Plan (aid to Europe post-WWII) was announced during a speech at Harvard, and I found myself thinking, “How incredible would it be to live/learn alongside such important, world-altering events?” Similarly, the media is obsessed by Harvard in a way that Yale can’t match... compare the number of Google results for “Harvard” (104,000,000) to Yale (37,500,000). This is what I mean by the “center of the world effect” – and it seems like it would be a neat place to be!</p>

<p>*Campuses *
Both campuses were stunning. In general, I liked Yale’s gothic buildings a little bit more. That said, nothing compares to Harvard’s main library; the huge neoclassical pillars and archways made me feel very scholarly :). Also, [url=<a href="http://www.fas.harvard.edu/%7Ememhall/images2/annen1.jpg%5DAnnenberg%5B/url"&gt;http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~memhall/images2/annen1.jpg]Annenberg[/url&lt;/a&gt;], the freshman dining hall, is something else (can you imagine eating there?!). Yale is in the process of renovating all of the dorms, though, and shiny new dorms are always a plus =)</p>

<p>Prestige
While I would never let prestige govern my decision, I would by lying if I said that prestige played NO role whatsoever. It’s not just the ego boost I’m after – HY are universally known for a certain caliber of student, and that’s a positive association that could potentially open doors. In this regard, I think Harvard has the slight edge.</p>

<p>So in the end, I love many aspects of Harvard (the opportunities) but I’m totally a sucker for strong communities and relationships (Yale’s strength). Parents.. what are you thoughts? Which sounds like a better fit? At the risk of oversimplifying... </p>

<p>* "Happenin', Impersonal Boston" or "Close-Knit, Smalltown Yale" ? *</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your thoughts or comments!
:)</p>

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<p>If you are interested in business as a future career, one thing I would check is whether either school has a chapter of [url=<a href="http://www.aiesec.org%5DAIESEC%5B/url"&gt;http://www.aiesec.org]AIESEC[/url&lt;/a&gt;], an organization that I first encountered when living overseas, and which my lowly alma mater has on campus. That's a cool group of students. Or, if neither school you're choosing has an AIESEC chapter, found one. That will get you your social networking group, at either school.</p>

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<p>I think if you reread your own post, you'll find you've answered your own question.</p>

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<p>Whoops! I forgot one...</p>

<p>Social Life</p>

<p>Harvard gets a bad rap for its social life, and I’m not sure what to make of it. I strongly dislike the "finals clubs," though it's up for debate how much of a role they play. Personally, I’m not a huge partier (and if I’m spending 4 years of my life at either Harvard of Yale, I don’t want to spend half of it wasted!), so the lack of frequent tons of parties doesn’t bother me much. On the other hand, it’s good to go out and have a good time every now and then – I hardly want my school to be an academic sweatshop! =)</p>

<p>On the other hand, Yalies pride themselves on their fun, frequent parties. Because Yale is in New Haven and without clubs/shows/bars/movies, parties seem to be a much larger part of the social “scene.” Likewise, Yale is much more lenient about the flow of alcohol (and the students take full advantage of this :)). Hence, the reason Yale declares themselves "more fun" ..</p>

<p>To be clear, I love to party as much as the next 18 year old! That siad, I'm wondering if the parties won't get old after a while - and other options would be nice. Then again, the Yalies I know tell me, "that's what NYC is for!"... :)</p>

<hr>

<p>tokenadult <a href="I%20love%20the%20name">/b</a> - Thanks for your suggestion. Yale DOES have an official AIESEC</a> chapter, whereas Harvard seems to have a more loose affiliation with the program (it is mentioned</a> on many of their webpages).
**
lefthandofdog - I've re-read my post several times now, but am still unsure. In fact, I was hoping that writing out my thoughts would give me a clearer direction! So, if my subconcious seems to have a preference that I'm overlooking, could you give me a hint or two ? =)</p>

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<p>Go to Yale for undergrad and then to Harvard Business. Seems that what you're looking for in an undergrad is at Yale...and what you like about Harvard will serve you well in grad school.</p>

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<p>methinks you are leaning towards Yale, but torn by the H name (but, who wouldn't be).</p>

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<p>Choose 1 fill out the card and then see how you feel in the morning. Which choice would give you the most peace. Go with your gut vs your head a little as both schools are amazing. My D says she sees you at Harvard but she tends to go a lot by feel and gut vs just listing facts. Let us know what you decide. That said I know that sense of community and pride in your school can be very important to general happiness. My S is just loving his college experience because of those very reasons. Wow what a choice to have. Harvard is a pretty difficult school to let go off!</p>

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<p>Your post makes it sounds like Yale is the way to go for you.</p>

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<p>Based on what you've written about yourself and how you describe what you found at the two schools, it seems to me as if you are just looking for permission to turn down Harvard for Yale. I hereby grant it. Go to Yale for undergrad, do well, go to Harvard for grad school if it interests you.</p>

<p>Here's an added reason: you say you do not really know yet what you want to do. Harvard requires you to declare your major at end of the first, rather than the second year. I believe that Harvard is a great place offering terrific resources, but especially for those with a good idea going in of what they want to major in and the activities they want to do. Those students can charge in and take advantage of everything Harvard has in the way of departmental advising, tutorials, jobs, programs. But, if you are still in the exploration stage, Yale offers just about as much but in what sounds like a cozier, more under-grad oriented atmosphere. Hope that helps.</p>

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<p>raven001 - My son turned down Harvard for Stanford three years ago because he felt it was a better school for him academically, socially, and location-wise. It was a very difficult choice because it seemed like everyone he knows assumed that no one would willingly turn down Harvard. He has had a fantastic experience at Stanford so far, and it was definitely the right decision for him. I am not at all familiar with Yale, but if it seems like the better school for YOU, you should not hesitate to choose it. Good luck!</p>

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<p>I am going to be the lone voice here. Before visiting Harvard, we had heard for years about Yale's greater undergrad focus, the fun residential colleges, etc. When we visited Harvard we met plenty of students who loved the place. We went to some student performances and found students excited about what they were doing. We have a dear young friend who went there who loved it. The students at Harvard have a tremendous affiliation with their houses. I am not crazy for Harvard Square, but I might have felt differently when I was 18. </p>

<p>Is there ego at these schools? Of course. But I think Harvard gets a bad rap on these boards just for being Harvard. It's reached the point where it's almost as though if you pick Harvard you are shallow. I don't mean to rant here -- neither of my kids applied to either -- but if Harvard excites you (which is what I hear in your post) I don't think you need to assume it would be a horrible experience. Au contraire. </p>

<p>At either school you will need to be outgoing and to take the initiative to get to know other students and professors if you are going to have a great experience. As you say, "I noticed that the more involved a student was at Harvard, the more s/he seemed to love the place."</p>

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<p>aparent5 - </p>

<p>I agree with you completely. Just as it is not a wise decision to choose Harvard unthinkingly because it is "Harvard", it is just as unwise to turn it down because it seems like a "shallow" choice (as you said). I really couldn't tell from Raven's post which school he is leaning towards in his heart. He should get the best information he can from those familiar with both schools and pick the one which he feels is best for him.</p>

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<p>It seems like your reasons for choosing Yale are much stronger (res. colleges, school spirit, social life), while your reasons for choosing Harvard are more superficial (prestige, "center of the world effect") with the exception of location.</p>

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<p>Raven,</p>

<p>Are you being influenced at all by folks at home or school, in such a way that you are concerned about turning down one school or the other? If you totally get to make this decision by yourself, trust your GUT, and go where you think you will be most content! You are going to have a wonderful opportunity to learn at either place, but you can trust yourself!
Sending you good vibes!!</p>

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<p>raven,
it sounds as if Yale might be a little more organized in its undergrad experience, and a little more within your comfort level. If that is the case, it is probably the better choice. You will do fine whichever you choose - congratulations on all your hard work that put you in this position!</p>

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<p>Raven,
I am not going to comment on which school is better. However, since I just got back from visiting Harvard, and I stayed in one of the upperclass houses, I think I can comment some on that issue.</p>

<p>My biggest fear about Harvard was the social life and sense of community, so that's what I focused my visit on.</p>

<p>I found that the houses all had a pretty good sense of community, probably not as tight knit as yale's, but still pretty good. My host was friends with lots of different groups, and everyone seemed to get along pretty well.</p>

<p>There are tons of extracurriculars here and things to do. On Friday night they told me it was a quiet night but there were at least 5 or so parties not including the finals clubs and school planned events. The trick is making lots of friends so you know who's having the parties.</p>

<p>I asked nearly everyone that I met whether or not he/she like harvard, and everyone except for one person said yes. Since the one person was hosting the party we went to, I'm inclined to say he was joking around (and I was told by my host who is friends with him that he most likely was). I got the feeling that the more social and involved people were, the more they liked the school. I got a great impression of Harvard's social life, but I doubt I would have had the same opinion if I had had a book worm type host. That said, my host had that type of host and she loves Harvard...</p>

<p>I hope some of this helps, if you want more details or have questions you can pm me...</p>

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<p>I feel like a broken record here, but if you are that torn, try considering this one definite advantage Yale has over Harvard: the calendar. See Yale's here: <a href="http://www.yale.edu/yalecol/students/academics/calendar/2005.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yale.edu/yalecol/students/academics/calendar/2005.html&lt;/a> Harvard's here: <a href="http://www.college.harvard.edu/calendar.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.college.harvard.edu/calendar.html&lt;/a> .</p>

<p>Some notable advantages to Yale's are the week-long Thanksgiving break over Harvard generously giving you Thanksgiving and the Friday after Thanksgiving off (since I live in Arizona, if I had attended Harvard, I would not be able to go home for Thanksgiving without missing class). Yale also has exams before winter break which means that you don't have to study over your break and you have 3 weeks instead of 10 days. Yale also ends about 2 or 3 weeks before Harvard so you are more in tune with your other friend's college schedules (and once again for me, I get at least a week of nice weather before the scorching Arizona summer starts again). If you are truly as torn as you say you are than this should help with the decision.</p>

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<p>I'm not a parent, but I read your post, and you sound just like me two weeks ago! Your reasons and everything! My parents actually forced me to send in my card about a week and a half ago. I hated for it at the time, but now I'm glad they made me do it. It feels good to know where I'm going to school.</p>

<p>That said, I think it sounds like you want to go to Yale more than Harvard. </p>

<p>In either case, you'll be turning down a school you like. Don't expect to not like Harvard when you choose Yale, or have a revelation that makes you hate Yale if you choose Harvard! As you said, the academic quality is identical. Choose where you think you'd be happier and more fulfilled.</p>

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<p>I think you should go to Harvard. If you've visited Yale and have not absolutely fallen in love with the place, you'll probably be happier with the ounce more prestige at Harvard. If you really don't feel your gut pulling you toward Yale, why not pick number#1?</p>

<ul>
<li>My D's at Yale and in love with the place.</li>
</ul>

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<p>Raven,</p>

<p>I'm a Harvard parent, and my D loves the place. And I think you have seen most of my input on various other threads on the Harvard board, so I won't repeat them here except to say that most of the issues you raise about H just haven't been a problem for her.</p>

<p>But in reading over your post here, you praise Yale and express doubts about Harvard for nearly every factor. Sounds to me like your mind, or least your heart, is already made up. You want to go to Yale but are having trouble letting go of Harvard. Yale's a great school. You'll get a wonderful education there.</p>