<p>Hi.
I specifically speak of Amherst, Williams, Vassar, Trinity(CT), Skidmore, Vanderbilt, in which I am interested. I found that they have the majors I want and are quite generous in giving financial aid to internationals like me, but at the same time are quite selective, almost as selective as some colleges with much better rankings and reputation than them.
So when I can apply to equally selective colleges, what's the point of applying to the aforementioned schools at all? They seem good, but they're still "hidden" Ivies. Will a degree from these colleges land me a good job(so that I can save up for Grad school and a PhD)? Will the faculty there be good? Will the environment be good? I'm all out of ideas, please walk me from the basic traits of these schools. I'm kind of ignorant about most of them, specially as they don't seem much talked about.</p>
<p>Um… yes. I don’t know why you keep calling them “hidden Ivies”, or why you think there are any colleges with hugely better rankings than them, but they’re good schools and you can get good jobs from them. I guess it makes sense that they’re not talked about internationally, but they are not lacking in ranking or reputation.</p>
<p>[Hidden</a> Ivies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_Ivies]Hidden”>The Hidden Ivies - Wikipedia)
I think the name comes from that book. People often refer to them as “Hidden Ivies.” I suppose names can be misleading. There are quite a few better ranking colleges than them.
Thanks, though.</p>
<p>If you’re an international don’t count on working in the US, even if you graduated from Harvard. All of the schools are good, the faculty there are excellent, but all have very different personalities. Skidmore and Vanderbilt are about as different as schools can be. The former is known for its liberal, hipster students, while the latter is known for its relatively conservative, and fratty student body.</p>
<p>People apply to schools for many different reasons. Some apply because a school is cheap and close to home, others because it’s got a strong major in the field they’re interested in, others because they just like the environment.</p>
<p>You’ll get a strong education at any of those schools. None of those schools will guarantee you a career or admission to a top grad school. You need to put in the work to make that happen. </p>
<p>Research the schools, ask for mailings, read reviews on uni.go (note there’s an inherent selection bias in the reviews), look at the CC subforums for the various schools. By the way, any school that admits less than 30% of its applicants isn’t hidden.</p>
<p>For the love of Pete…</p>
<p>The ivy league is an athletic conference comprising eight private institutions. The end.
In 1985 Richard Moll wrote “Public Ivy’s” listing eight universities that provided an ivy league experience at a public school price. Evidentially some schools got their feathers ruffled not being included and another book was written in 2001 by Howard and Matthew Greene that expanded that list to 30 universities.
Now we have Public Ivys, Southern Ivys, Little Ivys, Jesuit Ivys, Black Ivys, Hidden Ivys, and…I’m sure I’m missing one (or more).</p>
<p>If the school is right for you, don’t worry what list on wikipedia it falls on. The only reason the athletic conference matters is if you are a recruited athlete. Minus that, worry about academics, affordability, your given major, what companies are recruiting, etc.</p>
<p>Have a look at this ranking:
[America’s</a> Best Colleges List](<a href=“http://www.forbes.com/top-colleges/list/]America’s”>Forbes America’s Top Colleges List 2022)
As you can see, it ranks Williams #2 and Amherst #13.</p>
<p>Or, look at this one (another that mixes LACs and research universities):
[College</a> Rankings - Top 2000 Ranked Colleges - Highest Overall School Score - StateUniversity.com](<a href=“USA University College Directory - U.S. University Directory - State Universities and College Rankings”>http://www.stateuniversity.com/rank/score_rank.html)
It ranks Williams #8, Vassar #9, and Amherst #16.</p>
<p>Then, of course, there is the USNWR National Liberal Arts Colleges ranking, which ranks Williams #1, Amherst #2, and Vassar #12. </p>
<p>So how much better do their rankings need to be? Educated Americans who are familiar with colleges know and respect these schools: [Where</a> Professors Send Their Children to College - CBS News](<a href=“http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244508/where-professors-send-their-children-to-college/]Where”>http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37244508/where-professors-send-their-children-to-college/). They also do quite well in alumni admissions to selective law, medical, and business schools: [IPCN</a> Library](<a href=“http://www.inpathways.net/IPCNlibrary/ViewBiblio.aspx?aid=1577]IPCN”>InPathWays - Discover latest hot new trending topic, insights, analysis)</p>
<p>You are correct that small liberal arts colleges are among the most generous with aid to international students ([Top</a> 25 Financial Aid Colleges in US for International Students (Need-aware) - Desperate Guide: Undergraduate College Financial Aid, Scholarship](<a href=“http://www.desperateguide.com/us/top-25-financial-aid-colleges-in-us-for-international-students-need-aware]Top”>http://www.desperateguide.com/us/top-25-financial-aid-colleges-in-us-for-international-students-need-aware)). You also are correct that the schools you mention are among the most selective. Therefore, you’d be fortunate to be admitted to any of them with sufficient aid. But in case you aren’t, many other small LACs offer good aid to international students and essentially the same liberal arts programs as Williams, Amherst, etc.</p>
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<p>That’s much nicer wording than I was going to use.</p>
<p>I agree whole-heartedly with tk21769, those schools that you mentioned are nothing to sneeze at. Not to tear apart your thread, but there is much more than “rankings” and “reputation” to success after college anyway; so much more.</p>
<p>To address the question, these schools will provide you with an education that is comparable to the, supposedly, more reputable institutions—arguably even a better one, due to the liberal arts focus.</p>
<p>I wish you and I both luck in this whole process.</p>
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<p>Really? Where, other than Wikipedia, have you heard them referred to as “Hidden Ivies”? I would love to know your answer, although I’m guessing you don’t have one. I attended one of these schools and have NEVER heard them referred to in this way.</p>
<p>As for your questions about these schools . . . I think it’s safe to say that ANY school that ranks as one of the most selective schools in the country is going to have good faculty. In addition, the smaller the school, the greater the chance that your classes will actually be taught by the faculty themselves, instead of by graduate teaching assistants.</p>
<p>There is a fairly wide difference between Williams and Skidmore. </p>
<p>And Ivies are Ivies. Yes it was/is an athletic league, but it means a different thing now. Like it or not, graduating from an Ivy gives you prestige. Some jobs only hire mainly Ivy grads. Getting into an Ivy is tough. It means you’re smart.</p>
<p>But non-ivy students can do as well or better after college. Attending an Ivy does not guarantee success but it does open many doors.</p>
<p>Another one is “Pot of Ivy” schools. (Colgate, Bucknell, etc.)</p>
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<p>I’d vote for the biggest of all … the Wannabe Ivy!</p>
<p>Hmmmm, what schools would be in the Poison Ivy league?</p>
<p>The Poison Ivy League consists of this decades best and brightest for profits, including Le Cordon Bleu, University of Phoenix, and the Art Institutes. Criteria included whether the applicants would have been more employable before they got the degree, the size of the debt load, and how many commercials the schools bought. Ideally, they would have been the focus of a congressional investigation, and at least two New York Times editorials. A truly prestigious title indeed.</p>
<p>^ This is hilarious! Well done!</p>
<p>dodgersmom, The Hidden Ivies is a very well known college reference book by Howard Greene and Matthew Greene. It’s now gone through several editions and frequently appears in high school guidance offices all over the country. It was one of the source books my S used to find his LAC gem.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>I’m not sure how well-known any of the books written by the Greene tandem are known. About the several editions, the true is … two, with the second one in 2009. </p>
<p>It surely did not get much mileage on College Confidential, if that means anything. Besides the dumb and overused type of title.</p>
<p>M’s Mom - I’m not questioning that “Hidden Ivies” was a book title. I am, however, questioning the OP’s assertion that people “often” refer to these schools as “Hidden Ivies.” It strikes me as a rather glib assertion that can’t be supported. The author of the book coined a phrase . . . but has anyone ever used it other than the author?</p>
<p>In answer to OP’s question – they are all excellent schools.</p>
<p>Are they worth it – we could argue all day – well, we have in more threads than I care to count – as to whether any private school (including the Ivy Ivies) is worth the tuition that is charged by private universities in the U.S. Let’s just say if you believe that it’s worth paying this amount, you wouldn’t eliminate any of these schools on this basis.</p>
<p>The other question you need to ask is whether being in a LAC (all of the schools on the list, save Vanderbilt fall into this category) is worth it. Again, something we could debate all day.</p>
<p>“Hidden Ivy” – to be honest, I’ve always found phrases like “Hidden Ivy”, “Public Ivy”, “New Ivy” to be kind of demeaning to the institutions in that category. To me, it implies a tag-a-long status. These schools are excellent in their own right.</p>
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<p>Yes, Williams is a richer, more selective school. Other than that, I’m not sure how much difference there really is among most LACs, in terms of the educational experience they offer. They all have pretty much the same curriculum (although at Skidmore, ~14% of students major in business/marketing, which isn’t even offered at most). Skidmore has slightly smaller average class sizes than Williams (but in general, virtually all LACs have small classes). </p>
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<p>True, you need to be rather smart to get into an Ivy. However, this is about equally true of selective LACs. A cerebral LAC like Swarthmore, Carleton or Reed probably allocates far fewer places for “hooked” applicants than Harvard does. Once in, the average S/C/R student may well be getting a more intense academic experience, with more faculty engagement, than the average Ivy student.</p>
<p>I doubt there are any career fields in which typical employers hire the majority of employees from Ivies. There may be a very few individual firms that do so.</p>
<p>@dodgersmom
I’m sorry, I didn’t intend to use the phrase in a negative connotation, but I’ve seen the phrase being used by kids, EduUSA advisors, and an occasional article here and there. In fact, I got to know about these schools when I googled “Hidden Ivies.” Well, I agree. Williams and Amherst are great.</p>