<p>* there were very few students with parental incomes between $100,000 and $200,000 - I don't recall the school. There were representative numbers at the lower ends and upper ends of the income levels, but the middle class (and in our state the above range would be middle-class)*</p>
<p>You may consider $100,000 to $200,000 to be middle class, and I would agree than Conn has the highest median income in nation, at $56,409 it is over $10,000 more than teh average national income.
But Conn also is the state where the gap between rich and poor is wider than in any state except Tenn.
37% live below the poverty line- that is $20,000 for a family of four.
That * has* to drag down the communities idea of middle class</p>
<p>Sorry about the expensive jeans remarks. I know there are lots of people in elite schools who are down-to-earth and whose parents aren't wealthy. Sorry to offend anyone (or everyone!)</p>
<p>As for the liberal-arts education. Can't you be taught how to write, think, communicate, etc. in the other 100 or so credits outside of your major but perhaps major in something which might help you land (and do) a job someday? And thinking about the 3 or 4 different careers over a lifetime is why I would like my kids to major in something which could help them in one or two of these careers. Really, lots of schools look very interesting, but if you're not planning on going to law school or med school they don't seem to offer alot of good options in majors.</p>
<p>And I'm sure that Ivy League graduates get jobs with liberal arts majors but what about degrees from lesser-tier schools?</p>
<p>"I, too, take exception to Amazon's statement about the spending habits of those who pay full fare (1 in my case). Our last vacation cost $1,500 for both housing and meals. We have never spent more than $40 on a pair of jeans or tennis shoes. No one in my family cares a straw about brand names. And frankly, I'd rather give (and do) to charity than spend a small fortune on clothes. We (I) do not spend $1,000 on haircuts, and certainly not the amount listed by Dstark on food or gasoline . We have 5 and 14 year old cars. My kid attended public schools.
Could we have spent more on any of these items? Yes. But we chose to invest our money into our children's education from the time they were born."</p>
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[quote]
Sorry to be on a soapbox but my first impression of the elite private universities vs. state schools and less competitive schools such as BU or Syracuse (hope I'm not offending anyone - I think that's about the caliber of school that my daughter will end up in) is that the top schools largely have no majors in anything which leads directly to a job. For example, only 2 Ivies have a business undergrad. Also, comments on another site about many of these schools mention, "I never knew there were so many ridiculously overprivileged, spoiled people in the world". So, it seems like these schools are really geared to people who are not only rich enough to afford tuition, but also $120 jeans, dinners out, and not worry about getting a job right out of school. We are really becoming 2 countries.
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</p>
<p>Before you paint students at the top private schools in such way, you might do well to go back to discussions of some state universities in the South where the children of the local elite overwhelmingly go. The Porsches in the college parking lot are more likely to be found at Texas A&M or at Ole 'Bama than at HYP.</p>
<p>And if you're hankering after a European-style education, it may be worth bearing in mind that some departments have been eliminated in cost-cutting measures at several universities. I just heard at a dinner party yesterday (where I was wearing a sweater that I knit when my college freshman was one year old--I've never been inside a Neiman Marcus in my life), that there's been massive lay-offs at France's most prestigious research center and one department has been folded into another. There is absolutely no intellectual reason for doing so.</p>
<p>My siblings attended university in France. It was free, but UMass-Amherst ("ZooMass") is a model of good management and student-friendliness by comparison. And of course, there was no question of their living on campus--a cost of $10K+ in the US. Even so, there are far fewer French people who attend university than in the US.</p>
<p>Becoming two countries? The riots in France show that it has been two countries for a long time.</p>
<p>we are a blue collar family- who has sent our first generation daughter to a LAC-
She didn't pick it for its vocational school properties. She has never had trouble getting a job. She picked it for its focused preparation of education, for its rigor, and demanding atmosphere.
I think a broad based education that teaches you how to evaluate and to think, will serve students well in a changing economy.
She may decide to attend grad school, thats up to her, it isn't our job to cover it, and she wont need it to find one.</p>
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I know there are lots of people in elite schools who are down-to-earth and whose parents aren't wealthy.
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Of course there are. They are just some of the lower income half. To be sure, there are just as many very wealthy students attending who don't post on this board. Before everybody jumps all over amazon, realize that he/she wasn't necessarily talking about YOU, but about the visible presence of the other half and the relative lack of those in the middle ($100K-$200K) at those very expensive elite schools.</p>
<p>Was I the one who denigrated Neimann-Marcus? My point was that wealth may determine where you shop but shouldn't determine which kids are going to be leading the country in the future. I've heard the same argument about health care. "Not everyone can afford a Porsche and maybe not everyone should get a heart transplant."</p>
<p>My point, amazon, is that some of us do not spend $120 on a pair of jeans. We spend around $30 and invest the difference in our kids' education. Not everyone drives a Porsche--I don't--, but there is no God-given right to a Porsche or, for that matter, to an education at an expensive private college. </p>
<p>Before I advocate for a free college education for all, I will advocate for universal health care and better k-12 education for all.</p>
<p>Of course I agree that universal health care and better k-12 education for all are higher priorities. But they seem to do all of this in Europe and Canada plus almost free (or free) college education too. It seems to all be part of the same problem. Did anyone read "The 2-income trap"? The lack of uniformly good public schools leads to a whole cascade of bad effects - a run-up in price of houses in towns with good schools, which causes people to mortgage themselves to the hilt to provide a good education for their kids, etc. Then if one person loses their job or if they get divorced or sick, they're forced into bankrupcy. And perhaps many of you live in places where you can get an affordable house in a good school district but in many parts of the country this has become almost impossible.</p>
<p>"And of course, there was no question of their living on campus--a cost of $10K+ in the US. Even so, there are far fewer French people who attend university than in the US."</p>
<p>My understanding is that most students in France go to college in or near their hometowns. They live at home or otherwise off campus, and the vibrant campus life with extracurriculars, etc. isn't really part of the French college experience. </p>
<p>I also think that with the exception of the fact that immigrants from Africa, the MidEast and the Caribbean and their offspring are less likely in France to go to college than are other French, it's not necessarily a problem that a lower proportion of people in that country go to college than do so here.</p>
<p>From what I hear, Franch has a much better system of vocational education. This is something that we could use here.</p>
<p>People in the US seem to cling to the myth that everyone needs and deserves a college education. That's simply not true. There are many people who dislike academics (even if they are smart) or who lack strong academic talent. Such people would be far better served by being able to get an excellent vocational education.</p>
<p>Instead of dropping out of high school out of frustration or instead of graduating with minimal skills from very weak colleges, they could support themselves happily with jobs such as being plumbers, electricians, mechanics, carpenters, etc.</p>
<p>The US has the highest proportion of college goers in the world. Many French students do not complete high school. They are allowed to leave school--and many do-- after completing 9th grade and passing the school-leavers exam (it used to be called BEPC in my days, it's now been renamed). Those who do tend to go into some sort of vocational training (pharmacy, nursing, etc...) A lot of university programs have an entrance exam (science po, architecture, medicine, etc....) Entrance into the more prestigious schools (grandes ecoles) is just as restrictive. And let's not forget the high rate of failure at the Baccalaureat (70% in my brother's neighborhood school in a Paris suburb. France is by no means a model of universal higher education. </p>
<p>Of course, most French students live at home. Most American students have that option, too, but choose not to exercise it.</p>
<p>Amazon:
If you had spent any length of time in France or Britain, as I have, you would not envy their health care of educational system. If you needed a hip replacement in Britain, you had a wait of several years. And if you, for some reason, were not able to make the appointment (that was scheduled at the very last minute) you got to go to the end of the queue. Meanwhile, doctors with private practices were able to tend to their patients at NHS hospitals (thus worsening the shortage of beds). If anything, I understand the situation has gotten worse, not better since I lived in England.
My brother attended Nanterre at a time when you had to pass a gauntlet of drug dealers to get to class. I visited during a time when university professors went on strike to protest overcrowded classrooms and held some of their classes in metro stations and empty warehouses to dramatize their working conditions. </p>
<p>There is a reason why US higher education is so expensive. But it also has a variety of price ranges and there is far less of the micromanaging of higher education than in Europe and in fact, more Americans attend college than in Europe.</p>
<p>"I think you have to look at this from worst case scenario. If my kids get zero aid, merit or other wise, I will still be able to fund their education through our state college system. " That's how I think of it too, momofour. We have options other than the $45k schools. Community college for two years is one (it is not the end of the world as so many seem to think). State school in Cal runs roughly $15,000/year ( including room and board), but there are other states where it can be done cheaper. That is 1/3 the cost of the pricey elite schools. There is no question that a college education is available to everyone who desires one in this country, somehow, if one is willing to get creative and be flexible. Pricey college? No not available to everyone. But a college education of some sort is. We are lucky to live in this country where there are options. People do what they have to do. There are some on this board who have truly done whatever they could to insure their kids a good education, including one who did research on school systems all across the country and moved her family to another state. How many are willing to do that?</p>
<p>As for the $160k poster, I understand the position. With that income, you think, gee, no problem, I should be able to send my kids anywhere they want to go. It is frustrating to make that kind of money and realize that either you can't, or if you do, you have to live a $45k lifestyle, but them's the breaks. At least you have some choices. People at the bottom of the barrel may be able to struggle and get a college degree, but their options are much more limited. Most in that position (low income) are not getting free rides to anywhere. I used to joke and say to my H, gee, maybe our kids would be better off if you lost your job and I started drinking heavily. But in reality, kids who come from these kinds of backgrounds (no family support, or families just too mired in unfortunate circumstances to help their kids) usually don't end up at the most selective schools. For the few that do, more power to 'em.</p>
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<p>Before you paint students at the top private schools in such way, you might do well to go back to discussions of some state universities in the South where the children of the local elite overwhelmingly go. The Porsches in the college parking lot are more likely to be found at Texas A&M or at Ole 'Bama than at HYP<<</p>
</blockquote>
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<p>Actually, Marite, Texas A&M is a bit more of a blue collar place ;). SMU is the poster child for the BMW in the parking lot. </p>
<p>She's right, though, many people with lots of money around here see no reason for their kids to go to an expensive private school - and quite frankly, they are correct. If you have a family business to go home to, or if family money will finance the start-up of your own business, then you are better off going to state U and making contacts that will allow you to have the ear of the governor in 2020 than going to Harvard.</p>
<p>There is a small percentage, often docs and lawyers who make their money on their education, who will see value for paying a premium for educational quality - they keep Vandy and Davidson in business.</p>
<p>In response to the "washing dishes till your hands bleed" train of thought. Here's our situation:</p>
<p>My husband is a NYC garbage man, which means that he lifts 13 tons of garbage every day, works outside in all weather until his hands and face actually DO bleed, and also works a second job stocking shelves in a supermarket overnight. He also happens to have a college degree from a nice college here in NY. The reason he works so hard is to provide our kids with an excellent education in a city where the public schools are sewers. Because of elderly parents, we are not free to move. Our cost of living is very high. We pay local AND state taxes, our commute by public transportation costs over $5000 per year. We do, however, make more than $160,000 and my husband has a gold-plated retirement plan. Therefore, we feel that we can pay about $25,000 per year for our daughter's college and she has been extremely prudent in her choices. So hubby and I are the most grateful people in the world that we can pay that much and hope that our other two darlings will be equally prudent and all come out of college with little or no debt. This is where the high cost of living thing comes in. Salaries often go along with it, and in places like NYC, garbagemen and paralegals can make more than $160,000 per year, as can firemen, policemen, teachers, nurses, secretaries, waiters and waitresses. And those people are actually working hard for the money.</p>
I feel the need to second Marite's evaluation of medical care outside of the US. We lived in Canada (a country in which I truly loved to live) for three years. Everyday health care was fine -- I believe it was covered by the Province, in the same way that an American HMO would provide care. We had a wonderful pediatrician who even made a house call once. But when a friend's husband had a semi-serious medical condition, he was told he would have to wait eight months to see a specialist. Since they were covered by US medical insurance, they simply went to the States for immediate treatment. I don't think that this is unique, and it's not unusual for affluent Canadians or other Internationals come to the US for medical care. There must be a good reason for that.</p>
<p>my younger daughter needs to be in the care of a pyschiatrist.
We have a pretty good health care plan- however for mental health care- you must use one of their doctors.
For adolescents on our plan- there are 5 doctors listed in our city- 2 of the doctors are extreme flakes ( including the one she is currently seeing- she still hasn't updated the ins information and it has been over a year).
One doctor actually doesn't see adolescents, his speciality is geriatric, one might have an opening in March and one has never called me back.
I called the local childrens hospital that I know has a psychiatiric clinic and the wait list is 3 months even for emergencies.
We have had emergencies several times, and we have just been paying for therapy out of pocket,but it is diffcult to pay someone else many times our own hourly wage, especially when our ins coverage should mean something
The US does have great health care- for some</p>
<p>How would we feel in this country if our universities were 'free' (tax supported) and admission was by merit? It sounds like a good idea, until you realize that the students who are preparing for university in substandard schools would never stand a chance at admission. I recently read (can't remember where) that children in households led by low-income, non-college educated parent(s) have about 60% of the vocabulary of middle class, college educated families. It's not surprizing. If we went to a system of admitting kids to HYPS, etc. on the basis of test scores, AP courses taken, etc., we would be creating (or perpetuating) an aristocracy. We are happy to take on paying for our own child's education and as others have pointed out, in this country we have a wide range of entry points to higher ed and payment options. I would bristle at fully tax supporting the Ivy league. At least now taking on debt for our children's education is optional. If our public schools were uniformly good, with all students having an equal shot, I wouldn't mind. </p>
<p>I've often wondered, but never found information on, the percentage of families who feel squeezed by private tuitions. If 40% of Yale students receive aid, more than 40% probably apply but are not deemed "in need" (and a number of those receiving aid probably feel it's inadequate but somehow do it).</p>