<p>frazzled, we have a relative in a facility for those who are not self sufficient. Care costs 70,000/year, and there is no therapy. This is just for 3 meals/day, medication dispensing, and keeping patients clean.</p>
<p>The family bank account was wiped out in the blink of an eye.</p>
<p>I hear you, northeastmom - and just when we thought tuition is expensive and EFCs are tough!</p>
<p>And excellent point, quiltguru. Everything I've read indicates that Americans no longer make saving a priority (for retirement OR college). I think we'll see a huge mess once the boomers are in their 80s and 90s.</p>
<p>I would also suggest that those who plan to care for elderly parents themselves AND put every available dollar into their children's educations are certainly going to feel the squeeze.</p>
<p>I guess I'm part of the "sandwich" generation. My oldest child is a HS junior, and my parents are around 80 and starting to have serious health problems. I live 1000 miles away. I don't have a bedroom or full bath on the main level of my house (I would turn the dining room into a bedroom but they couldn't get upstairs for a bath). They can get help where they live for $10 an hour, here it's $20. Besides, they don't want to move. They really hate having me help them with anything although I fight them tooth and nail to give them some money and occasionally call their doctors, social workers, etc. to find out what's really going on. They really hate that. That's the way it is in our society. Dependency is viewed as worse than death.</p>
<p>On the other side, kids seem to need help with house downpayments, etc. forever. </p>
<p>I knew a Korean woman who was cleaning houses. She and her husband put one daughter through med school and the other through law school. I said, "I hope they help you out". She said, "They better, we don't even have a house".</p>
<p>The problem here, I think, is what's defined by a reasonable retirement. When it's argued that, because someone was in the top 5% of earners while working (150,000 salary) he or she "needs" a retirement income of 120,000, thus a couple million dollars in savings (which are presumably not to be touched, thus inherited, I guess, by those struggling kids). Well, that's a nice scenario, but since only a tiny, tiny minority of people can possibly attain that, it can't really be so necessary, can it?</p>
<p>Everyone I know who had a parent in a nursing home legally structured their parents' money so that the spouse kept their home and income, and Medicare/caid picked up the tab (for nice places). Don't know how they did that, but it's apparently legal.</p>
<p>If we had universal health insurance, retirement would be easier. (I know Canadians and Britons who love it, and waiting lists sure would sound good to the 45,000,000 Americans (including my D) with no insurance at all--or to the millions of bankrupt families(medical bills the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US)).</p>
<p>garland, I am not a medicare expert, but I know that they do not pay for a nursing home beyong perhaps 60 days. It may be 60 days after each hospitalization, or something. For the long haul, they do not pay. That is what long term care insurance is for. Oh, and there is a look back period of 3 years, and it I believe it will be going to 5 years regarding transfer of assets. Yes, I think the spouse can stay in their home as long as they don't sell it. I am not an attorney either, but I think a nursing home can get paid their money out of the house proceeds when it is sold. I also read an article recently about grandparents transferring some money to grandchildren for college etc. There will be a look back of 5 years. Currently it is 3 years. If grandparents transfer 100,000 today for college, they will not be able to get medicaid for 16 months. This is to make sure that people do not quickly transfer funds when they become sick, so they can qualify for medicaid.</p>
<p>One spouse can go on medicaid if they need to go to a nursing home and leave a certain amount of assets with the other spouse but the problem is if you don't know which parent will need to go on Medicaid first. They can't switch off. If they both eventually need Medicaid (to go into a nursing home) the amount of money they can keep is going down.</p>
<p>
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Everyone I know who had a parent in a nursing home legally structured their parents' money so that the spouse kept their home and income, and Medicare/caid picked up the tab (for nice places). Don't know how they did that, but it's apparently legal.
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<p>It's fortunate that nice places in your area accept Medicaid patients - and of course "nice" can mean many things - but the private senior care residences in my area do not. Once the assets are gone, seniors are moved from those places to facilities that may be better than adequate, but are measurably less nice. Medicaid is structured not to kick in until a person's assets are all but gone. Just as folks are EXPECTED to pay their EFC for a college education, folks are expected to pay for their own elder care, particularly in long-term residences. This is the ultimate spend-down.</p>
<p>I agree with NEMom ... Medicaid/care doesn't pay for long term nursing care. And -- there are situations where nursing home care simply cannot be avoided. </p>
<p>In our case, my FIL renovated the house for a wheelchair, set up MILs new room with a hospital bed, hired in-home 24/7 care, and still could not manage her care at home. We went through 7 years of her being in and out of nursing homes, rehab facilities, hospitals, etc. </p>
<p>We went through the cycle of bring her home, everything is OK for a bit, then the meds got off balance, there'd be a crisis, an emergency hospital admission where it seemed they usually made things worse, followed by 60 days of rehab or nursing home, then it was a choice between private pay (us!) or going home with live in nursing (also us paying!) ... and the cycle would repeat. It was very expensive -- and very difficult for all concerned.</p>
<p>I'm kind of a latecomer to the thread, but I can really understand where folks are coming from. I've been there. (Oddly, I spent part of the evening yesterday shredding old copies of CSS Profiles, Student Aid Reports, and mounds of copies of other documentation I submitted during those years. It's a very liberating experience to realize you'll never have to fill out those forms again. :))</p>
<p>On the main CC site, I posted several articles a while back that addressed some of the topics discussed above - see The</a> Financial Aid Conundrum, which links to the individual articles.</p>
<p>The main point is that it's VERY hard to plan in advance unless your income is highly predictible in the long run. Assumptions made five or ten years before college begins may prove to be completely off-base. And, of course, there's the savers vs. spenders debate...</p>
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<blockquote> <p>I knew a Korean woman who was cleaning houses. She and her husband put one daughter through med school and the other through law school. I said, "I hope they help you out". She said, "They better, we don't even have a house".</p> </blockquote>
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<p>That's a great example of a family working together to advance the next generation. Few American parents today are so willing to sacrifice; college expenses are supposed to come out of disposable income, after the payments for the nice house and Lexus. (Before I stir everyone up, I know that many of our members don't have fancy houses and cars, and are still struggling with college expenses. I can assure you, though, that these families exist. The number of families who deliberately maintain a spartan lifestyle in order to sock away money for college is relatively small.)</p>
<p>all I can say is I hope my mother doesn't have to use a nursing facility.
She spent all my fathers money years ago,( he died when I was 17 she didn't call the aid car- bcause she wanted to punish him)
She was an only child and as soon as her parents died 15 years ago, she quit her job and has made a huge dent in spending their savings and investments, she has had to refinance her condo several times because she takes cash out, even though it was paid for when she bought it.
I have friends who pay for their parents care, as well as manage their affairs from across the country-I guess I am glad I don't have that hanging over my head</p>
<p>Ahhh, methinks I should get some more children so I could live the Life of Riley when I retire. Maybe I should get some "minority" children while I'm at it. It's probably too late and counter-productive at this time, however.</p>
<p>I can't agree more with lkf's and Marite's logic here. I even agree with HSM's that parents aren't "obligated" to send their kids to just any college they may want to attend, regardless of cost. (Though we planned for and were able to achieve that; had we not done so, we wouldn't have felt guilty about it, since there would have been other decent options.)</p>
<p>Of course, some people are unable to build or preserve a retirement fund. A lot underestimate what they will need in retirement, and perhaps place too much reliance on social security. But if you are able to plan ahead, and if you start when you're young and keep your retirement savings/investments out of the mix of funds that you spend prior to retirement (your home equity might also be tapped then if you trade down), then you surely ought to do it. And the calculations offered by sjmom above are right.</p>
<p>Regarding paying for long term care for a parent - I recall several years ago a little controversy because Governor Pataki of New YOrk had somehow structured his mother's assets to enable her to live in long term care at the state's expense (while literally preserving the family farm). He is a Yale law graduate, so I suppose he learned a thing or two. He didn't do anything illegal, but was savvy enough to work things so he wasn't saddled with the cost.</p>
<p>mackinaw's comment reminds me of friends who got tired of having their parents ask when they could expect grandchildren. The friends said they were waiting to adopt college graduates (preferably a doctor and a lawyer - one of each).</p>
<p>lefthandofdog -- I like your friends' sense of humor!</p>
<p>
Here is how I look at our situation -- I wish our EFC wasn't as high as it is. I wish we'd been smarter about financial decisions so that this EFC was easy to meet. I wish we weren't taking out so much in loans.</p>
<p>But -- I'm happy that we were able to send our son to the school best suited to him, even though it's so expensive. I also recognize that my son, coming from a family that values education, had advantages that the kids EK4 describes don't have. </p>
<p>I know a young man who came from a LARGE family, with serious health issues for younger siblings. His parents did not have college degrees, and he received financial aid at the HS level. He is now receiving significant need-based aid at an Ivy league school, and I can't think of anyone who deserves it more! He has gotten to this point due to sheer determination and effort, and is both charming and amusing at the same time. So he gets more aid than my son -- so what? He NEEDS more aid than my son, and I'm just happy that things worked out for such a wonderful young man -- someday, I'll have the pleasure of saying, "I knew him way back when!"</p>
<p>I have worked in many assisted care/nursing home facilities, and I agree with frazzled1 that there is a HUGE difference in the quality of life among the various places. You must consider the environment, programs, food, staffing, independence and the willingness of the facility to keep your family member in the least restrictive environment. Look closely, really closely. </p>
<p>My parents cared for my grandmother in their home until it was no longer possible. When we needed to put my grandmother in a nursing home, we sought out the nicest place we could find that was also convenient for family to visit. The facility checked to see that any resident had at least two years worth of money before they could be admitted. It was $1000 per month, and that was in the early 1980s! That's alot of cash, and within less than three years my grandmother's savings were wiped out. </p>
<p>For those that couldn't afford this expense, there was always the state run nursing home...not the most attractive option. </p>
<p>It just isn't prudent to put this burden on our children, nor is it wise to assume that they will be willing and able to shoulder that burden. I think the comfortable retirement fund and the long term health care insurance are the way to go.</p>
<p>We had my mother-in-law living with us for close to three months after some recent major surgery. I get along with her fine, but my wife reached a point where "I don't care where she goes, I just want her out of here!". Fortunately, she was soon able to return to her condo with home health care before CSI needed to be called.</p>
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And you can get a pretty good cognitive workout studying business. Marketing and organizational behavior get very into psychology, etc.
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<p>Amazon, I actually have an undergrad in marketing and am my graduate work in psychology. The program request a minimun number of credits and if you do not have them they are added on to your program which means off the bat you are staying in school longer. In addtion you find out that many of the courses you did not take as an undergrad are now pre-requisites for you grad program.</p>
<p>If you want to attend law school, you are better served selecting a major where you will be working on your critical thinking, reading, writing, and presentation skills. This may account for large # of english, history, government, philosophy majors:). My D is a religion major and told me that she only knew 2 people who went on to divinity school. Everyone else is in med/law school, investment banking or management consultng.</p>
<p>Sybbie - In your undergrad marketing program do you think you didn't get a good background in critical thinking, etc.? My daughter would probably gravitate towards something like history or philosophy. The people who get jobs from say religion in investment banking - do they go to top, top schools? She's not Ivy league material.</p>
<p>I have never worked in marketing a day in my life but I chose the major because when I went to college my parents were of the mindset of you can major in whatever you like as long as you can get a job at the end of 4 years. </p>
<p>This is one of the reasons that I am a stauch supporters of a liberal arts education. I wanted my daughter to go to college and study whatever she was passionate about and to take courses because they were things that she was truly interested in learning. She is doing a modified major in religion where most of her courses are in comparative religion and rounding it out with courses in english, classics, government, philosophy and history that are linked to religion. For example: she is taking a government course in Relgion and world politics that can be applied toward her major. She is also taking a course in greek mythology that will be applied to her major. This fall she will do a religion study abroad program in Edinburgh.</p>
<p>She got many looks from the family memebers when she told them she was going to be a religion major. The biggest question she was asked what are you going to do with a degree in religion? Her answer, pretty much anything that I want.</p>
<p>After she finishes college she will have close to 45 years to work (if retirement is still at 67). I think that her education will give her tools that she needs to whatever she ultimately decides to do because it will all come together in the end.</p>
<p>Did I get a job in advertising at the end of 4 years- no.</p>
<p>I felt that my courses were fun and they did connect to some of the things that I learned in psychology years later. However, as part of my requirements for undergrad I had couses in business policy and operations managementabd a minor in english that helped me greatly in my work life. </p>
<p>when I went to graduate school, I completed my first masters for my job. I completed my second masters(educational psychology) and I am in my current PhD program for myself (yes still working in corporate life while completing a counseling PhD program.</p>
<p>RE: on campus vs. off campus housing and how this affects your EFC...When you do the FAFSA, you indicate whether the student will be living on or off campus so they must factor that in. However, in some markets, the cost of living OFF campus doesn't really save much money (e.g. major cities such as Boston or New York). </p>
<p>Re: retirement...for some of us, it is a necessity. I work in a state where I will NOT be eligible for social security...not ever. My state does not fully fund the teacher's retirement system, leaving me with little confidence that it will be fully available to me. Also, health care will be on MY dime...my employer and my husbands do NOT offer health care to retirees. SO a 403B is essential for me. Having said that, I have been contributing the maximum for over 20 years. Next year with two kidlets in college, I WILL have to cut back my contributions to my 403 or I will have to tap into home equity. I haven't quite figured out which is the better plan, but I have a couple of months to figure that out.</p>
<p>Many of us posting on this forum are surprised by the people who react with shock at high EFCs, and wonder why the shocked people didn't start saving for their kids when they were toddlers. </p>
<p>I predict that in another few dozen years the same posters will be surprised to find out that Medicaid will wipe them out when they go into a nursing home. (My parents were wiped out.) BY AGE 60, we should all be paying into long term care insurance. It's not just a matter, as someone has already said, of being wiped out at the final illness, but it's the QUALITY OF THE NURSING HOME. The nicest nursing homes will not take large numbers of Medicaid patients. (I also know this from experience: my mother, in extreme pain from bone cancer, was still hauled across town to the warehouse nursing home instead of being taken in by the hospital's nursing home on the premises. She was on Medicaid.)</p>