The honors college at UF takes in 700 freshmen every year. There is honors housing in a separate area, early registration, honors classes, but just the honors freshmen group is bigger than the entering class at man LACs. My nephew turned it down because he didn’t see the benefit to him.
No doubt the counselors are overburdened (each has 100 students x 4 years = 400 total). But this is a known issue with one counselor (who also failed to submit transcripts to certain colleges for several students including D18 due to failing to realize that those colleges didn’t use Naviance).
On the broader point it will be interesting to see how (if at all) the UC outcomes differ based on not utilizing recommendations for most applicants. I suspect it won’t make any noticeable difference.
My daughter has a friend at UNC whose sibling is instate, top 10%, 31 on the ACT… and was not accepted. I am learning that nothing is a lock.
Using counselor recommendations would probably result in unearned advantage to applicants with good counselors (probably more common at high-end private schools) and unearned disadvantage to applicants with poor counselors (like your son’s counselor).
The somewhat experimental use of optional recommendations by invitation at UCB is controversial because it is likely that recommendation quality is heavily dependent on the recommender, adding an unearned advantage or disadvantage for many applicants that may be correlated to SES (recommenders at high end private schools may be more experienced with writing them, compared to overworked recommenders at public schools, particularly in low SES areas). Unlike many other states’ public universities, UC is still relatively committed to accessibility for students from low SES families.
The UF Honors College primary goal is to get the honors students more active and immersed in campus life. UF is a big school with a bigger campus. It’s laid out differently than a lot of large schools. Kind of a sprawl. They want to attract top in state students (who are likely looking at other options) and give them a sense of community. It certainly has value (vs. not being in it) but it is not a highly developed program that will make an incredible difference in a student’s UF experience (limited honors only classes in a fairly small range of subjects. It does have an advantage of first choice access to classes but that’s only an advantage because the school is so massive it’s hard to get classes. Housing is supposed to be nice. Not sure if kids stay there all 4 years.)
Many kids leave the program once they get into the upper classes of their major because there really is no advantage at that point. Even as an honor student, it is quite likely the student would still have to take several classes online as they just don’t have the resources. That varies depending on majors. Business students will be taking online classes until junior yr. Some say they prefer that. Not for me but that’s personal.
All that said, I’ve never met a Gator who didn’t love it. A lot of that is the hoopla that goes with SEC sports, which I think would be a blast. Put 35k undergrads in a party environment and what’s not to like. That’s FL. The state primarily has very large state Us and not a lot of money.
@rickle1 Hey, UF honor classes are awesome, we have a new one coming out in the fall on Tom Petty!
http://mycbs4.com/news/local/uf-to-offer-tom-petty-class
And I’m free, free fallin’
Yeah I’m free, free fallin’
@rickle1: “That’s FL. The state primarily has very large state Us and not a lot of money.”
I personally think NCF is a hidden gem. As rigorous as many top private LACs yet in-state public prices for Floridians.
“My daughter has a friend at UNC whose sibling is instate, top 10%, 31 on the ACT… and was not accepted. I am learning that nothing is a lock.”
I don’t know why that is surprising. Top 10% in class rank and top 5% in ACT would be on the cusp and could go either way.
UT-Austin guarantees admission to the top 7% in class rank in TX.
The UC’s guarantee admission to the top 9% in class rank in CA but the lower UC’s are well below UNC-CH in selectivity.
Top 1% in everything and in-state for NC but rejected by UNC-CH would be surprising.
^ I actually agree with you now… two years ago I was surprised.
A few posts back… somebody posted that if he lived instate for UVA or UNC, his son would be a “lock” with a 1410/31 and a 3.95 UW. This is not true… even instate, he would not be a “lock.” That was the purpose of my post.
Two years ago … without any experience… I may have agreed with this poster… ( although I might not say it) …but today… seeing what I do … I don’t agree at all.
Some people have asked me if my D likes UNC as an OOS student… given the “caliber” of the instate kids compared to OOS ( their words, not mine). It is a state school, and therefore there is some greater variability in terms of acceptances… however … my daughter has many, many friends who live in NC, and these are some of the most accomplished kids I have ever met. I cringe when people make those comments to me. She is getting an outstanding education and is learning from everybody… including those whose ACT score may ( or may not) be a little lower. Everybody has something valuable to bring to the table regardless of where they are from. Even as a high stats OOS student… my D works hard to maintain her gpa. It does not happen effortlessly… at all.
Being instate is not a “lock.” Just like being OOS with very high stats is not a " lock" for honors. There is a lot more to it… it’s not so simple.
Ok- back to the original topic. :-w
Thank you @twogirls from a SC mom. I also cringe when people assume that OOS students are accepted to raise the caliber of students in attendance , especially at Southern schools.
I would consider paying full freight at a “high end college” vs. taking the full ride to state U honors college to be the equivalent of buying a time share at retail. Once you are finished looking at the glossy brochures and the over the top sales pitch, after investigation you find out that if you really want a time share you can have one with little or no upfront cost.
As for the investment argument, spending more capital to obtain the same or less total return is never advisable.
“spending more capital to obtain the same or less total return is never advisable”
Don’t tell Rolex, Mercedes or Ritz-Carlton! Selecting a college can be buying a “luxury good” too, as opposed to looking at the ROI. One friend of my S18 recently expressed shock to him that cost was a factor for us in selecting a college, because it had never been a consideration for that friend and his family. He simply couldn’t understand why we took Georgetown (which had originally been a dream school for S18) off the application list due to its $300K cost.
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@loukydad “…spending more capital to obtain the same or less total return is never advisable.”
I agree, but it depends on whether you are getting the same thing.
An in-state Honors College is a very good deal. However, there are times when it is probably a mistake. It is important to know the student and the specific options well.
When you are comparing Michigan or UVA to an Ivy, you are probably getting something similar. If you are comparing a directional to an Ivy, then I don’t think you are getting something similar.
The statement “When you are comparing Michigan or UVA to an Ivy, you are probably getting something similar” is highly dependent on individual circumstances. Even the most “elite” publics are 4x or so bigger than the fancy privates, and end up having a broader range of corresponding outcomes. There is no one size fits all solution.
@Twoin18 The Echols results and Jefferson Scholars results are not related. Jefferson Scholars are separate from UVA admissions and are administered by the Jefferson Scholars Foundation. Being named an Echols scholar does not mean your child would have had similar success with Jefferson. There is no way to know that.
@twogirls I agree with you that @rickle1 's S would not have been a lock for UNC or UVA with a 1410 SAT if instate. There are MANY high stats kids in Virginia, and many are not accepted to UVA every year. OOS people tend to underestimate how difficult the admissions process can be, even for top instate kids. And It is always more than just a certain SAT score needed.
It’s not really accurate to compare top end private colleges to luxury goods. First, anyone can buy luxury goods as long as you have money; that’s not the case with some high end colleges. Second, for some students it cost less to attend high end colleges than in-state colleges. So we really need to specify specific high-end colleges and specific Honors Program/or Colleges.
I do agree with one thing though. Generally speaking, if you are a student with high stats, it’s not a bad idea to apply to Honors Colleges which offer great merit money and have it in the bag and use it as a safety.
@sevmom Yes I know. Even if nominated it would have been a very long shot. But my point is that if he’d failed to get in EA or failed to get Echols, he would have been extraordinarily unlikely to get the Jefferson scholarship (as I understand it Jefferson scholars get Echols automatically). So then he wouldn’t have been at all bothered about his school failing to make a nomination.
One of our kids is in the Honors College at an OOS public flagship and she says it’s really not “all that”. Meaning, not all of your classes will be in Honors Sections. In addition, she says meeting the Honors requirements each semester can be a bit of a PIA as you try to arrange your class schedule.
Sure, the Honors Housing is very nice, but so are other dorms on campus. Sure, she met a lot of smart students in the Honors Housing, but there are smart students all over campus. Plenty of engineering students opted for the Engineering LLC over Honors Housing, or weren’t even in Honors to begin with.
Now that she is fully immersed in her major, and has a PT job off-campus related to her major, Honors seems even less important.
Having said all that, getting accepted into the Honors program was really, really important to her when she was a senior in HS. It made the idea of attending the school more…palatable…to a kid who wanted prestige. Now? It’s a big MEH. She sees there are lots of different opportunities on campus, whether in Honors or not. Bright, motivated students will get noticed, whether in Honors or not.
YMMV!
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Look closely at the academic departments of the most interest to your kids. Often, the in-state programs are just as good (if not better than some of the private schools that may not emphasize every dept.) Best of luck.