In reading this thread, I have seen several posters refer to “Fancy privates.” In the words of Inigo Montoya, “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”
The schools with a lot of amenities tend to be public schools in the south working hard to attract more students with lazy rivers, whirlpool spas, hot tubs, climbing walls, impressive dorms, and high-quality dining.
In contrast, D1 lives in what is basically a student slum just off of the Penn campus. The only thing “fancy” about her Penn experience is the level of rigor, the crazy amount of homework, the complexity of the projects, and the opportunities. Those are not things I would typically associate with the word “fancy.”
Honors programs are great for the right student. If D1 had chosen the Echols program at UVA, or the Chancellor’s Scholar program at Berkeley, I have no doubt that she would still be a spectacular success. However, what distinguishes a top program has to do with having knowledgeable professors and administrators who understand how to take a group of students who know more when they arrive as a freshman than average college students know when they graduate, and understanding how to push them to the wall for four years and give them the best education possible. There is no fancy aspect to it.
You’re only choosing UVA Echols or Berkeley Regents for the money (compared to what such a student could get from a private school) if in-state tuition is the concern.
Wasn’t the original discussion about picking a lower ranked university with an Honors college that offers full tuition/full ride scholarships (Alabama, Oklahoma, Utah, etc) instead of full pay at a tippy top private with no merit aid? Those are two extremes, whereas the Cal/UVA case is somewhere in the middle (in-state) or much closer to the latter (out-of-state, unless you use AP credit and graduate early)?
. . .and I don’t know why a lesser private at a lesser cost (with scholarships) aren’t also part of the calculation. Kids who can get in to honors programs or elite privates can also get significant discounts at other schools that may provide what they want (like smaller classes, more faculty attention, more research opportunities, honors colleges, etc., etc.)
We met a wonderful student at Denison and he chose Denison over Chicago and honors programs at big state schools. His girlfriend chose it over MIT. I know it’s not an ‘honors college vs. high end university’ comparison but it makes @PurpleTitan 's point that there are other options besides an elite university or honors program.
Last spring I ran into two moms whose kids attend two different Ivy League schools. These moms were frustrated because it was the end of May… and their students did not have anything lined up for the summer. I have another acquaintance whose daughter is at a different “elite private” … and her daughter worked at a local camp… which is fine… but the mom was expecting " more."
I think it’s important to remember that students play a role in the opportunities that are offered to them. There are a lot of variables…
@websensation I guess our family would fit the bill. I don’t think of us as rich but we do make good money and we have no debt. We could certainly do it for 1 child. We have 3 kids and it would be a huge stretch and life change to do the top amount for all 3, but I guess from a financial planning point we could do it but not without severely hurting our retirements and pushing our exit from the work force way back. It is possible.
Our dd had the stats to try to for the top schools. We toured a few. She did not apply to any tippytops but did apply to some highly ranked schools closer to home (at our insistence) and was admitted. What did she decide? She fell in love with Alabama. It checked off every box for her. She met with professors, honors students, administrators, parents, etc… over several visits to campus. She wanted school spirit. She wanted to leave our region (although she plans to return). She wanted a contained campus. She wanted a large school but not in a large city and not in the middle of nowhere. She wanted to be with academic peers who shared her love of learning. It was mentioned upthread but it bears repeating that while the ACT/SAT spread may be large, there are thousands of kids in these honors colleges with tippytop stats. They are producing top scholars and graduating young adults who are going on to great things. She checked off all of the boxes and is getting this without a cent of debt. In contrast she will graduate with a nice nest egg from her 529. Her decision with our blessing.
Right decision, only time will tell. She did have an amazing first semester; small classes, met professors, is involved in several organizations on campus, met many academic peers, has landed a very, very good summer opportunity back in the northeast that will hopefully lead into a top internship the following year. She has met with career services and has had mulitple interviews for positions on campus. She has met people from all walks of life. She is happy. If she had attended her highest rank admission (consistently in the top 50 for national uinversities, best teaching, best value, and in the top 5 for her major), tuition was over $50,000/yr. It is not HYPS but it is prestigious. Would she have received a great education and many of the same opportunities? I am sure. Would it be $200,000 better than what she is receiving at a much lower ranked state Honors College that was the fit she was looking for? I don’t think so. YMMV.
@bamamom2021 We’re in a very similar situation. We feel the 3 kids should get the same amount of money and the benchmark is in-state costs, where we have good options.
For us part of this comes down to intended career path, S18 is more interested in higher paying jobs, whereas D18’s career plans (as a dance major) are the opposite. Hence S is thinking about more expensive options (but perhaps providing better job opportunities in the future) OOS (possibly with some debt, though he’s very aware of the financial benefit of potentially graduating early if he can use AP credit), but D not so much (a full tuition scholarship and keeping her 529 money may be better than in-state, especially at a great dance school).
Yep, I agree, @Twoin18. Good in-state options (or UK options) may provide a path to that and as you know, there are always master’s programs. If people have taken the (cheapo) UoL distance degree->LSE->City route, it’s hard to argue that there’s any end-goal that absolutely requires shelling out a quarter million dollars for undergrad. Now granted, you may get some combination of better flexibility/optionality/cohort/fit by paying more, but that’s not an ROI calculation.
@Midwest67 appreciate your perspective. Our son has been accepted into three out of state honors programs and been offered scholarships and also just got into UNC EA (in-state) but there was not an accompanying Honors notification which raised some concern for us as being in Carolina Honors seems like it would make a difference. We are headed down to a UGA Honors orientation right now to learn more about that specific program. Not sure what the various Honors criteria are as he has a 34 ACT, 1470 SAT, full load of AP and Honors classes, with a 3.91 UW/4.92 W GPA which seems like it should have been in the range at UNC based on what I have seen from others admitted. Helpful to know how impactful these programs really are in the grand scheme of things. Note: He was also deferred OOS from UVA with two parents that have four UVA degrees between them so this process is definitely an interesting one.
@panther92, it would depend on potential goals, for one. UNC is more renown in CS and business (though K-F has competitive entry) and communications and tends to be more highly regarded by lay people overall (and would have a fair number of smart kids even outside of honors). Would the opportunities and benefits in honors matter?
@PurpleTitan The UK (or more specifically England) has always appealed as a (relatively) cheap option given the 3 year course duration and S18’s very clear focus on a particular subject. But we’re now wondering whether UVA Echols could provide a similar US-based option (with a much easier transition to a career in the US), given the lack of distribution requirements and the ability to use the credit from his APs, which make graduating in 3 years (or doing a masters in 4) a realistic possibility.
Thanks @PurpleTitan. I haven’t seen any definitive confirmation that being in an honors program makes much difference in the end. The honors concept appears to be quite variable based on the school in question. The more important factors seem to center around the reputation of the school and intended career path as related to what the schools offer. I originally thought you had the daughter that said the honors distinction wasn’t what she thought it would be in the end but realized after I posted that that was @Midwest67. I see you have a broad perspective on a number of these challenging questions so appreciate your insight. I believe my son will major in finance or business and ultimately go to graduate school so that is also a consideration. Lots to think about.
@Panther92, congrats on your S being accepted to three OOS honors programs. It does seem strange that UNC did not offer Honors and that UVA did not consider your legacy. Just goes to show how random the process can be. How did you like the UGA Honors orientation? We were impressed with it last fall so UGA remains a strong contender, as do a couple other so called “high end” colleges.
@Twoin18, to answer your earlier post, this thread was originally about comparing Honors programs with so called “high end” or “elite” schools (OP did not specify no merit aid from the small privates). In our case, it may come down to a full ride at an Honors Program state school vs. partial merit aid from smaller private universities, some ranked top 25 (are those considered high end?) vs. #54 (USNWP) UGA.
One comment about rankings that is my pet peeve. They really should not be taken too seriously (imho). The criteria are so different between different rankings such as US News and Forbes, so you get some vast differences in where they rank the same schools. There are at least two other rankings, including Niche and WSJ. Who to believe? Forbes includes many small LACs so that is one reason, but it seems there are still in huge consistencies. As an example, Tulane is #40 on USNWP but around #123 on Forbes. Bama is #110 and Forbes at #264. What is more frustrating is that Honors programs and specific majors are not taken into consideration, or the fact that there are smart successful students at all schools, regardless of ranking!
@Twoin18 UVA is probably an outlier in terms of Honors, especially in terms of no money attached to Echols, and UVA 's focus on need based aid rather than merit aid. It is flattering to be chosen and there are some perks with registration and distribution requirements . It may give a slight bump on the resume (not sure) but , in general, once your child gets to school, it will be how he does that will determine his future success and opportunities. And has been noted, many strong students are not accepted to UVA at all. If you are instate, UVA is a good opportunity, regardless of Honors status. Good luck with decisions!
I don’t think I ever said Honors Colleges with great merit money are lesser options. In fact, I chose Cornell because it was almost free for me. What I AM saying is it is a lesser option for some people, just like going to expensive tip-top private college is a lesser option for some. All I know is one of biggest reasons I considered OOS Honors College is because of big merit money.
I think most honors programs are just marketing. In fact, I’ve read that multiple times. End of the day your degree and the reputation of your alma mater isn’t the honors program, it’s the college as a whole (for better or worse).
@writermom2018: I think that any experts in a field will tell you that mass media is awful when it comes to their understanding of that field (at least, that has been my experience in the fields I’ve been in and am knowledgeable about).
In any case, as I said before, you can’t generalize. Honors programs differ. So do elite privates. So do LACs. For that matter, so so public flagships. So do the same major across schools. You simply have to investigate the specifics of each. And some honors programs are just marketing. Some offer a lot. What they offer may or may not matter depending on the student (that goes for schools as well). Non-honors at one school may actually offer more than honors at another. It all depends.