Umass Amherst Commonwealth Honors College has separate dorms (if you choose), a cafe and study area, smaller classes, priority scheduling and some other bonus factors. If biology is an area of interest, they have a program BioTap that takes the top honors students and again segregates them even further. If I remember, its less than 50 kids that are accepted (my D was but didn’t attend the school). You son’s stats are a good match for their honors program but the school is very large.
High Stats can be helpful with getting into some Honors programs, but extracurricular activities showing a strong interest in an area or two might help more when applying for Fellowships or other merit scholarships. No doubt there are some students who are not as sure of a major or area of interest, which in my view should be fine. Some students, regardless of knowing what major is of interest, may not be a good fit for a large State school, even with a smaller Honors program to make it feel more intimate. It probably depends on the student and what he/she is comfortable with. UGA seemed to be looking for around a 34 ACT for EA Honors, maybe a little lower for RD Honors, although I don’t think they publish a minimum standardized score for Honors. To apply for their Fellows Program, I believe a minimum of a 1470 SAT is needed with most applicants likely having higher scores. To answer another poster’s question, I am pretty sure it is not required to live in the Honors dorm at UGA if one does not want to.
@NEPatsGirl @Nomorelurker thanks
Being undecided on major isn’t alsoa problem with bigger schools I think. He’s only ruled out business and engineering and everything else on the table. I wouldn’t want him to not be able to get into the classes he wants in order to try different things and I wouldn’t want him shut out of a major if he decided late.
@homerdog I think maybe your son likes LACs… and that’s why you/he are struggling with this issue.
My D is at a state school and did not make honors despite having very high stats. She is with her academic peers, is very close with her professors and has gone to their homes for dinner, has taught special extra help sessions, has been involved in research since her first year, has been invited by her profs to present at conferences, has attended special dinners and has been invited to programs both on and off campus. She has also worked under professors and scientists from renown institutions. I am of the belief that these things can be found at many types of schools if the student wants them.
I am thinking that maybe your son needs to find the type of school he likes… and then apply accordingly. He may not like bigger schools… and that’s ok… or… maybe he would if the right one presented itself.
I would dismiss larger state schools if your son does not like them… but I would not dismiss them because of a lack of opportunities or academic peer group. A typical Friday night for my D is sitting around… sometimes with peers… and sometimes with professors over pizza… discussing harassment in the workplace or their research involvement.
@twogirls hm. I guess what I was trying to say is that I don’t think he knows if he would like a big school. If he had your D’s experience then maybe he would. I just don’t know which big schools to show him where all of those “small school” things are available. Websites aren’t super clear.
Is your son a junior? Maybe you could take him to visit a few more state schools and have him talk to the different departments… undergraduate research, etc.
@homerdog : look into Penn State Schreyer, Michigan LSA Honors, USC Columbia Honors.
Note that for Schreyer test scores arent taken into account - course rigor and grades are important, as are the recommendations, but the key factor is the three essays that are reviewed by faculty to determine whether they’d want you in their small, interactive seminar - how well read, nuanced, thoughtful, interesting you are matters.
@homerdog- He might look into some of the elite, competitive programs inside of the honors colleges like the Fellows at UGA or Randall Research Scholars at the University of Alabama. These kids will be intellectual peers (think 1500+ SAT or 34 ACT) and make for a smaller feel within an honors college. The application process is very competitive and many of these kids get offers from high ranked schools as well.
Something to think about:
The (arguably) top LAC in the country is Williams. For their class that enrolled in fall 2016 there were 553 freshmen.
The CDS reports the Median SAT of those students as 730 for CR and 720 for Math. So that is about 275 students with scores over 1450.
For an even smaller school like Swarthmore, where only 450 freshmen enrolled, the Median SAT of those students was 720 for each. So that is about 225 students with SAT scores above 1440.
And in a somewhat lower ranked (but still excellent) LAC like Hamilton College, their class of 2021 freshman profile shows only 34 freshmen total with an SAT combined score over 1500 (includes both new and old) and another 53 with ACTs in the 34-36 range. So about 90 high scoring students.
For an honors program like the one described above at UGA, that may require a 1470 SAT minimum or where the students all have even higher test scores, it is possible that there are a few hundred students with SAT scores above 1470. (Perhaps Nomorelurker can chime in with the size of the honors program at UGA.)
In terms of sheer numbers, there are likely more high scoring and talented students in a very large state university honors program than even the best small LACs. If it is an honors program where the students are housed together, that honors dorm could have more high achieving students than in an entire small LAC.
If the honors program houses hundreds of high achieving students together, what dissuades some students (or perhaps their parents) is not finding other students of similar academic strengths. Perhaps it is the overall “culture” of a large university that sees its mission to educate less academically accomplished students along with the top performing ones. It is a less rarefied environment where simply being a student at State U by itself does not imply some very high achieving superiority that is not really true of many of the students at even the best LACs.
@homerdog it’s important that you realize that stats regarding admission stats posted are usually the 50th percentile stats for a program . There will be students with lower stats , but there will also be ones with higher stats than your son. I agree with @twogirls that you and your son prefer LACs. That should be what you focus on. There have been many posts on this thread and others that suggest that what you and your son are looking for in an Honors College does exist. That doesn’t mean that he should consider those or that you and he will would be happy there. Only you can decide that.
To your point observer12, Pitt’s honors dorm alone houses over 400 freshman each year, and to be admitted to honors you need at least a 1450 SAT (combined SAT math and critical reading), or a 32 ACT composite, an ‘A’ average in a challenging high school curriculum, and a top 5% class rank (if applicable). (Not all honors students live in the honors dorm, so the number in the honors cohort overall is higher than 400+).
[As a further aside on Pitt, It is posted above that anyone can take honors courses at Pitt. That’s not really true. As a freshman, anyone “may nonetheless be given permission to enroll in a UHC course by a UHC advisor or by the course instructor. Decisions are made on a case-by-case basis. If you want to take a UHC course, the best thing to do is ask your advisor.” So students not in honors may be approved, maybe not. If they are approved, my guess is the sorts of kids who show that initiative and are self-motivated to take honors courses are value added to the honors program.
After freshman year, students “qualify to take UHC courses if they have a 3.25 grade point average (GPA), a B+ average.” One can argue one way or another about the thresholds, but again self-motivated kids in that cohort who seek out honors are fine additions, in my view, to any classroom.]
There are absolutely lots of other things to consider with respect to Pitt or any other school, including with respect to who their honors programs operate. But honors programs at many public (or, like Pitt, state-affiliated) institutions have strong cohorts within them.
@JMS111 agreed. My ACT 34, #10 in class of almost 700 daughter has almost the lowest stats in her suite in the honors dorm at Pitt! There are many many likeminded and self-motivated kids in her dorm. A lot of them had Pitt as a first choice. A lot of them chose Pitt after the cost $$ at more “selective” schools made the decision for them.
@homerdog Here’s an example at Utah of a selective group (of 30 per year) within the Honors College (with the added benefit of a full ride scholarship). Something we’re very interested in for my D18 with similar stats to your son (4.0UW, 35 ACT): https://honors.utah.edu/admissions/eccles-distinguished-scholarship/
@observer12, since very few schools provide score disctribution reports, I have found the CDS results to be easier to compare.
So for the 2017-2018 CDS, if one looks at the % of admitted students at the top-LAC’s that scored over 700 on CR and Math, respectively, one would see the following;
Amherst - 83% CR, 85% M
Williams - 78% CR, 73% M
Carleton - 70% CR, 70% M
Vassar - 72% CR, 64% M
Hamilton - 67% CR, 67% M
Wellesley - 71% CR, 61% M
Claremont McKenna - 60% CR, 60% M
Swarthmore - 61% CR, 63% M (2016-2017 data only)
Pomona - 63% CR, 60% M
Haverford - 59% CR, 61% M (2016-2017 data only)
Grinnell - 50% CR, 69% M (2016-2017 data only)
Middlebury - 57%, CR, 57% M
Bowdoin - 59% CR, 54% M (2016-2017 data only)
Wesleyan - 57% CR, 53% M
Washington and Lee - 55% CR, 53% M
Davidson - 52% CR, 49% M
Smith - 49% CR, 45% M
Colgate - 38% CR, 49% M (2016-2017 data only)
Colby - 34% CR, 44% M (2015-2016 data only)
Correction to posting #153 as Claremont McKenna’s Math distribution was mistated - here’s the corrected results;
Amherst - 83% CR, 85% M
Williams - 78% CR, 73% M
Carleton - 70% CR, 70% M
Vassar - 72% CR, 64% M
Hamilton - 67% CR, 67% M
Wellesley - 71% CR, 61% M
Claremont McKenna - 60% CR, 70% M
Swarthmore - 61% CR, 63% M (2016-2017 data only)
Pomona - 63% CR, 60% M
Haverford - 59% CR, 61% M (2016-2017 data only)
Grinnell - 50% CR, 69% M (2016-2017 data only)
Middlebury - 57%, CR, 57% M
Bowdoin - 59% CR, 54% M (2016-2017 data only)
Wesleyan - 57% CR, 53% M
Washington and Lee - 55% CR, 53% M
Davidson - 52% CR, 49% M
Smith - 49% CR, 45% M
Colgate - 38% CR, 49% M (2016-2017 data only)
Colby - 34% CR, 44% M (2015-2016 data only)
By choosing a very narrow group to interact with at college, you may be limiting your experiences. What is the diversity of the honors housing, both racially and economically? Are all majors represented? Are you learning to live and work with all types of students or just with others who are just like you?
One of the best parts of my college life was having friends from all majors, being in classes with those who were struggling a little and with those who were from different backgrounds. One friend had a 4.0 and was accepted to medical school before graduation, but he was from a poor background and he didn’t know how to pronounce a lot of words. He knew the words, but had never heard the words. Took me down a peg or two and taught me not to be so judgmental.
I was not in honors but I was allowed to take honors courses if there were openings. I didn’t find them harder or more interesting, just another class. My daughter is not allowed to take honors courses at her school so has been denied the right to take a course on Disney and one this semester on Hip Hop and Diversity. No one knows more about Disney than my daughter and I think she would have added to the discussion (since she’s worked for Disney). I can’t imagine a Hip Hop class wouldn’t have been enhanced by having a few non-honors hip hoppers in the class since the honors program is full of white students.
@twoinanddone Even students in Honors programs take classes that are not restricted to Honors students. They engage in other activities that are not restricted to Honors only students . To say that these students are not exposed to students of diverse populations, different academic abilities or different socioeconomic backgrounds is not an accurate assessment . Broad generalizations regarding programs help no one and are no less offensive than stereotyping non Honors students .
@Chembiodad Is your point that there are lots of people in top lacs with lower stats and lots in public honors with higher stats? Agreed. Makes it critical to meet professors and know the environment at schools however that’s pretty hard to do.
Kinda of.
My point is that the perception as to which LAC schools have the students with the highest academic profiles doesn’t tie to reality as many get confused by things like USNWR rankings.
So yes, your point certainly holds true as well for those in honors colleges within large flagships - there are many top students that have chosen that path for a myriad of great reasons.
@carolinamom2boys , I was talking to those who don’t think the honors programs at flagships are going to provide a group of peers because the honors students will have to deal with others outside the program. I’m definitely a pro big school person because I think they provide more. I don’t necessarily like the honors programs as I think they further limit the college experience but I’d prefer that (for me, for my kids) over a tiny LAC.
My kids know their professors. They have small classes at big schools. This year D#1 (at a flagship) has one course with 16 in it and another class of 24 with the same professor. I think she’ll get to know him. She’s had courses with 100+ students and knew that prof too because she made it a point to do so. D2 also has the same professor for two classes this semester, and he just asked her to do research for him. I think they’ll be downright sick of each other by the end of the semester.
D1 is much more academic, more intellectual, than D2 but D1 had much lower stats going in to college. No honors invitations, no LACs waving money at her. She is the one some think couldn’t be a good classmate, is not a peer because she didn’t have 4.0/34 stats. I think you’d be wrong as she does add to the discussion, does the reading, prepares for class, and loves talking and talking and talking about whatever the topic is. It’s my other daughter, the one who did have the stats (and did have the LACs recruiting her), who doesn’t add to the intellectual atmosphere or discussion. She goes to class, learns the material, takes the test, and is done. She does not want to discuss the why of anything, only the how. At an LAC, you could get D2 but not D1. At a flagship, you can get both. Who you choose to interact with is up to you.