^ the case you’re referring to is very different from your daughter 's.
Your daughter is taking an independent qtidy/research class where she also makes herself useful to the teacher supervising her research.
At many schools, Teacher’s Aide is a period occupation for nice kids who can’t handle a full schedule, so they only have 4 academic classes. In some cases, it’s graded on 3-point scale, meaning an A is worth less than in a regular class.
The kid you mention wants to apply to UCLA. UCLA wants an all-academic or full schedule with arts etc, and as a large state school with 100,000 applications to review (literally) it has to cut through quickly and select based on clear criteria such as GPA and course rigor. Right off the bat, this student is cut.
Your daughter is not in this situation at all.
@MYOS1634 – thanks for clarifying this for me. D18’s class is officially called “Scientific Research I” and what she’s actually been doing so far sounded very similar to the OP on that other thread. She grades H-Bio papers/tests, sets up labs, etc. Basically, helps out a teacher. I guess the additional “research” part, where she annotates and reviews scientific papers leading up to producing something of her own, is the difference.
The second half of D18’s junior year is going to be busy, with SR-I kicking in, Biotech class getting more involved, and her iGEM team starting up. Ugh…
I’m interested in your opinion. I have a son deciding on college. He was admitted Notre Dame (his love since we stepped foot on it freshman year, Uchicago, University of Michigan.and I made him apply to Michigan State (we live super close to it) . Learning comes easy to this kid, he loves to learn. He is majoring in physics. MSU has the number 1 program in Physics for grad school. They are currently building the largest cyclotron lab in the nation there for nuclear physics so my son wants to be here for grad school. Well, they just offered him a near full ride + --a paid pPA position at the cyclotron lab starting freshmen year. They told him he can bypass all university requirements and make up his own honors level ones, he can take however many credits he wants and it will all be paid for.
This is the caveat- the UNDER grad physics is not as strong as ND, UM, UChicago. When we talk to the grad profs at MSU they say to pick one of those schools and then come back.
They say sure, our son could make it into the #1nuclear physics grad program if he stays here at MSU and stays on top of everything. It’s rare but happens.
My husband and I are pushing a dif UG experience but all of a sudden our son is liking the MSU option. He is impressed by all MSU is giving him. We are telling him ND, UChicago and UM all gave him awesome financial aid and scholarships (brought it down to lower than in state tuition) and $ isn’t everything. Just looking for other opinions who live and breathe this!
That’s way over my pay grade … but when I think physics I think Caltech, Princeton, Berkeley, MIT, etc. Basically, the top schools listed on the physics major for USNWR:
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/physics
Strangely enough, MSU is listed as their top nuclear physics graduate program:
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/nuclear-science-rankings
Of the schools you listed, I’d pick UChicago for UG.
M24sweet, if he is that enthused, I suspect he will rise and find fulfillment at MSU. Just in case, let him attend admitted students weekends at at least one other U
@m24sweet This is just a comment and not weighing in one way or the other for him. But, in general I believe it is frowned upon to attend the same grad school as your undergrad school in physics if you are aiming for an academic career. Colleges that hire post-docs and faculty look for someone who has has at least a couple research experiences along the way.
DS decided in elementary school he wanted to be a physicist, or ‘fisix’ as he spelled it then. Went to college all set on physics. Decided after applying to physics PhD programs that in reality, he really preferred math. Now doing math PhD.
I would encourage your son to cast a broader net as an UG. While attending other schools will not preclude him from going to MSU for grad school, his options (both in terms of field and grad school) will be much wider if he attends one of the other schools. There is a reason those professors are telling him to go elsewhere. Yes, they do know what they are talking about…much much more than a kid in HS.
If he wants to attend MSU for grad school, he shouldn’t attend it for undergrad. It’s definitely frowned upon because you don’t get exposure to as many researchers and don’t create a strong enough network, plus sometimes it’s “the good student we had in undergrad who didn’t get into any other Master’s programs” - not necessarily true but the reputation sticks. That’s why the MSU profs tell him to go elsewhere: they want him for grad school. If he wants to do his graduate degree there, he needs to pick another college for undergrad. The money MSu’s throwing at him isn’t out of the kindness of their heart, it’s not to help him stricto sensu, it’s to help themselves by having him as a “prize student”, but the professors know the school has its own interests at heart, not the student’s, and they tried to steer him to where it’ll be best for him academically.
If cost is not a big burden, UChicago definitely for undergrad. The faculty will be top-notch (I’m sure UMich’s and MSU’s in physics are as well), but he’d get more individual attention and the perks of a well-endowed private. And yes, more options if he decides to change paths. UMich isn’t far behind on the last two aspects and ND would be able to match on the last 3 (and MSU honors may be able to offer a lot of individual attention as well), but UChicago would be as good or better in all areas.
^ Caveat: Unless he hates the environment at the U of C or ND (but I doubt that since he applied there).
There’s a guy from my HS who went to MSU honors as a physics major and now is a tenured physics professor (at another B10 school) who our HS touts as a success story, so there certainly is a path to success going the MSU route, but the other schools offer more even without special “perks”.
I’m digging up this old thread to include the latest test score so that people can see a complete record. I’ve really enjoyed reading long-term threads here on CC where I could see how things progressed over time for other kids, so I’d like to make a contribution.
D18 got a 35 on her Sep17 ACT test. Minimal prep yet again. She got basically the same SAT this year as last year (1470 vs 1480). I think the SAT taken two weeks before the ACT served as “prep” and that helped increase her ACT this year. Here’s her ACT record:
Senior (Sep17) C:35 (E:36, M:32, R:36, S:36)
Junior (Oct16) C:33 (E:34, M:29, R:35, S:32)
Soph (Feb16): C:30 (E:30, M:27, R:35, S:28)
If you had asked me at any time up to now, when I dug up the old component scores, I would have said that she improved her Math score the most … and I would have attributed it to increased mathematical ability (she is far better at math now than in 10th grade). Yet her largest increases were in the English and Science components, areas where I had no concerns. Very confusing.
Just wanted to comment on the post by m22boys, saying “Tufts still asks me for donations, so I e-mailed President Monaco to tell him why I would never donate to Tufts. He actually replied that Tufts wants students who contribute something to the college community, not those who would excel there.” The comment by the president is both stupid and insulting. I suppose since m22boys had already said that she would never donate to Tufts, the president felt that he had nothing left to lose, so why not be rude?
Being state AP scholar is quite an accomplishment in most states. It requires the largest number of AP exams, with scores of 3 or higher; then ties are broken by the average score on all AP exams taken. (It is possible that the raw scores may be used to break remaining ties in some states.)
A student who is “quiet,” rather than loud, often does add something to a college community. Deep thinkers commonly fit into this category. A few deep thinkers add a lot to a class of “leaders” who are happy to speak off the top of their heads, without thinking too long (not saying that this is true of all leaders, obviously).
Among top colleges, MIT used to fill its classes based heavily on intelligence and commitment to engineering/science. Caltech still does. MIT has bought into the holistic admissions approach employed by most other top schools. This favors extraverts.
As far as the main topic of the thread: I think it depends on what exactly the student and the family are looking for. If the family is full pay at a high-end college, it may be worth it to them, or it might not be. They may need to save money for medical school or law school. For a bright student who wants to go to medical school, in general I would recommend the route via an honors program at a state college. For a student who wants to go to law school, there might be some advantage to the high-end college, but perhaps not enough to justify the extra cost.
In some income ranges, the high-end college may wind up being less expensive than the state college. In that case, I think a lot depends on how well the student can handle being surrounded by more affluent people. Will the student be comfortable anyway? Affluent people at high-end colleges will not in general flaunt their wealth (though some do), but they may make assumptions about common experiences that are funds-based, and not at all common. If the roommate arrives at college in a private plane, is that cool or off-putting?
Interesting thread. Thanks for digging it up @droppedit. S is so far considering some solid merit/Honors offered by a few strong mid size private universities (not sure I would use “high end” to describe them, although one is top 25) while also having a Fellowship interview at a large instate public university. Also still waiting on a few reaches this Spring. The small fish/big fish in a pond metaphor elicits food for thought.
As a parent, one of the things that I consider is potential quality of life at a university and anticipated level of fun outside of class. What is the reputation for competitiveness vs collaboration at a given school? After four years of grueling high school rigor, ten or more AP classes, standardized tests and multiple extracurricular activities, when do our kids get to enjoy life a bit? I read a lot about burn out and can’t help but wonder if keeping the pedal to the metal at a very “elite” university is the best strategy for long term success. Some competitive schools may have quite a bit of grade deflation (examples might be Wake Forest or Georgia Tech). The latter can be an issue if keeping instate free tuition (Hope Scholarship) might be important.
Schools with reputations as “party schools” (whether true or not), like Florida State, Penn State, UGA,Tulane, Alabama, Wisconsin, UT… with a large Greek life presence… might not be ideal for some students. The public Honor’s College or Program seems to have positives in providing a community of serious students from the start. No, not all Honors students are “nerds”, many are normal kids who can balance work and play, not a bad skill to develop. Having a strong football program can add some fun even if not joining a frat or sorority. Schools like Bama, UGA, and UT offer strong Honors programs, possibly providing the best of both worlds. On the other side of the coin, top ranked private universities such as Duke, Notre Dame, USC, Stanford, or Georgetown (almost upset Xavier last night!) offer strong academics and strong school spirit. It may come down to two factors (fit and affordability). Oh, might be helpful to ask the kid’s input too :-).
Your student should look at what the honors program requires and how it fits in with his/her other goals.
My son did not check the box on one application where it asked whether he wanted to be considered for the honors program. The college contacted him to see whether he had failed to check the box by mistake. But it was not a mistake. Participating in honors would have required him to devote much more of his time to the liberal arts than would be necessary in the regular program, and this conflicted with his goal of progressing as far as possible as soon as possible in a computer science major. He had made an informed decision that the honors program was not for him.
Interesting challenge arises for the social, athletic, engaging, super smart kids who would benefit from honors program but don’t want to live in honors dorm because they do want to party and get that whole college experience. Don’t want the “nerdy stigma” of lifestyle. That was the case with S and we decided to solve the problem by paying for a private college (yes we are fortunate to be able to do that). So he attends a highly selective school where everyone is an honors student but it’s the regular social life spectrum range of crazy party animals through quiet introverts. They actually have substance party free housing for those who don’t want to see any of that.
Yes it’s a lot more expensive but very satisfying to hear S speak of how accomplished his friends are. Glad to know he can surround himself with peers that are quite serious about their studies (all of them) AND live an activity jam packed life including crazy frat parties on a regular basis.
We looked at some state honors programs and it just didn’t cut it for him. He would have preferred not to be in the program which would have shortchanged the academic aspects.
@rickle1 chiming in to just assure you and everyone else here: trust me, if an honors kid wants to party they can be SUPER assured they can find other honors students to party with. In my Ds “Honors College” dorm there are kids getting alcohol citations up the wazoo and are completely unaware that others somehow have the misperception that honors kids are not supposed to party. They drink in their dorm rooms JUST like all of the non-honors students do or they find off campus parties to attend. The “Honors College” housing is not short-changing them in ANY way, shape or form of the “typical college experience.” You made me spit out my coffee reading your post. I’m glad your son is happy, but I wanted everyone reading this to realize it is just not true that the Honors College kids are sitting around in study cubes at 1 am on the weekends.
Ds suitemates who like to party are kids with ACT 35, Valedictorian ranking who despite the partying and active social life have still maintained Deans list grades while taking multivariage calc, Honors Engineering classes and Physics 2 as freshmen. Oh wait, one of them is one of only 10 students who were selected into the highly competitive guaranteed medical school admission program. They are great kids who have an active social life, are in club sports, volunteer and are exploring Greek life.
Now that I think about it, I remember D saying they talked informally about admissions stuff at the beginning of the school year. With ACT 34 and #10 ranking in her class of almost 700 she learned her stats were among the lowest in the suite. So please do not say your son could not find academic peers in the honors college at a state college. That is almost an eye rolling statement.
On ANY given Friday night there are kids partying, some kids studying, other kids going out on the town and others who are playing their sport or singing in the campus choir or theater. The list goes on but be very assured the social scene is JUST like you describe “crazy party animals through quiet introverts” only this is at state school prices.
You do NOT have to pay $$$$$$ at a private school to get that kind of social diversity. For every kid reading this who needs to choose the Honors College at a state school because it is more affordable—you CAN have an active social life in an HC at a state school AND have many many solid academic peers.
No experience in one. Just wanted to suggest looking extra careful at the requirements. For example, our local college absolutely requires honors students to live on campus in a special dorm. Not great for students needing to live at home for finances. Some require study abroad which isn’t great for ever major. My kids opted for private schools instead of honors because they got better financial deals but just reading through the public honors programs made us realize that they can all be very, very different.
^^^ Glad your D is having a great time. Didn’t say that couldn’t happen. As this thread suggests, a lot of it has to do with the honors program at each specific school. Ours didn’t have much meat on the bone.
Not about having to spend $$$$, but rather choosing to. That worked for us. Everyone’s situation is different. Glad we made that choice and it sounds like you are too.
and…go get yourself another cup of coffee on this fine Super Bowl Sunday.
I’m reading this thread with interest. Our S19 is interested in being with his intellectual peers and enjoying strong relationships with his professors. So far, we’ve only found this at LACs.
I investigated honors programs at a few schools (ASU, Wisconsin, Maryland, Vermont) but I still don’t get the feeling that they give him what he is looking for. First of all, the grades and scores to get into some these programs seem low and I’m not convinced that all of the kids would be intellectual peers. Sure, he could find some kids like him but the point would be for him to not have to search for kids like him. Secondly, some of the programs just offer honors work options. The kids can just do more work for an honors designation. Doesn’t mean classes are smaller. Some schools (like Pitt) let anyone take honors classes.
If anyone knows of a true honors college option, I’m all ears. In our eyes it would include honors housing, small classes, research opportunities, not having to declare a major until the end of soph year, and strong mentorship. More like a real LAC inside a big school. S19 has 3.85 UW/4.7 W GPA, 1540 SAT and will have nine APs. Taking BC Calc this year and Multivariable senior year. Planning on Math 2 and History SAT 2s. He’s undecided on major.
I’ve wanted to be able to show him honors college options to compare to the liberal arts schools on his list but I don’t think I’ve found one yet that would check his boxes. Maybe he’s just not the right fit for a bigger school. I do find it’s extremely hard to find details about honors programs.