High SAT, Wilting GPA, Needs campus nature

Parents Social Lounge
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<p>I read all fifty pages on the B student thread. Whew. It seems that there are some cheerful kids who are B students. They are compliant, great kids. </p>

<p>Then there are those (mostly male) who are very, very bright but not compliant with the minutiae and repetitive tasks of high school. My guy is one of those. He's 2100 SAT but 3.1 (and wilting) GPA and a rising senior. He does best when he is intrigued in class (one of those kids that can get a A in zippy honors chemistry and a C- in a math class with tons of mundane homework). </p>

<p>So, he might fit at a challenging school, but will definitely sink at a too easy place. What colleges are going to look past the GPA? I think he is happiest in a treed/lovely environment. Any suggestions? He says he'd like to be an author (but SAT writing was the lowest element).</p>

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<p>How about Marlboro College in Vermont?
Or College of the Atlantic in Maine?</p>

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<p>Does he have any other preferences aside from a nice campus? Large or small campus? City or rural? State or private? And what are the financial limitations?</p>

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<p>You may find some good suggestions on the 3.0 to 3.3 thread. My son has similar stats to yours: 2080 SAT and 3.2 GPA. He wants a big public, and I’m actually starting to think that this may be the best bet for a kid like him rather than a private. My rationale is that there will always be high achieving, very bright kids at certain big publics who simply could not afford a private school, while those bright kids who have better grades than my son might not be shopping at the same private schools to which he would be admitted.</p>

<p>I also think there is less minutiae in big classes…with the grades mostly dependent on tests…so if your kid tests well, it’s a bonus.</p>

<p>My rationale may be flawed…after all, I’m trying to come up with reasons to feel good about the fact that my son is destined for a big public institution…</p>

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<p>Olymom, frequently large state schools will overlook a subpar GPA for some stellar test scores. Do any of your in-state schools have a treed environment?</p>

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<p>Erin’s Dad…re: your first sentence…do you really think that’s true? I haven’t heard that before…are you basing it on something you have read or heard, or something anecdotal? (I would be thrilled if it were true of course!) Of course, maybe a “stellar” score is 2300 rather than 2100…</p>

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<p>I think Marlboro sounds like a really good suggestion. Bennington might also be worth a look, and is only half an hour away.</p>

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<p>"My guy is one of those. He’s 2100 SAT but 3.1 (and wilting) GPA and a rising senior. "</p>

<p>Both of my sons were like the above, and both of their gpas kept wilting senior year. Older S turned down 2 top 25 colleges to go to U Minn., which gave him virtually a full ride. He flunked out with a gpa of below 1.0 because he didn’t bother to go to class… He was the son that I stood over to make sure got applications in to the colleges that he said interested him. He said he wanted to go immediately to college and not take a gap year.</p>

<p>Younger S didn’t get around to applying to college, and I had the good sense not to structure him. When he missed the deadlines for the colleges that interested him, within a week or 2, he had found an Americorps position (He loved to volunteer, and had been a volunteer for years). He did a gap year living at home, paying rent, and working for Americorps, then went to a LAC – Rollins – that he found, loved, applied to on his own and took out major loans to attend because due to his horrendous senior year, his parents wouldn’t pay a cent for his college until S proved himself by getting good grades in college for a year.</p>

<p>He is a rising junior with good grades (last semester’s a 3.75) while working up to 14 hours a week, taking a full courseload, and being very involved in a variety of productive ECs.</p>

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<p>“Then there are those (mostly male) who are very, very bright but not compliant with the minutiae and repetitive tasks of high school.”</p>

<p>Enlarging upon Northstarmom’s theme, the tone of your post suggests that you are almost making excuses for your S’s failure to achieve. IMHO, what this child needs is to get the loud and clear message that for almost everyone, success in life depends much less on what the SAT measures, than on one’s willingness and ability to deal with “minutiae and repetitive tasks” at a consistently high level. (Had one myself, but his situation and opportunities were changed dramatically by athletics. Nonetheless, I continue to remind him of this point at every opportunity).</p>

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<p>EMM1, hang on a minute. Our great nation was founded by some very bright guys who were fed up with the “way things were.” It’s not just my kiddo here that we are talking about. We, as a nation, are failing our young men. Far more males than females drop out and don’t finish high school. Newsweek ran a story last year about the number of males that now choose not to go to college and then spend their twenties couch surfing and holding temp jobs. </p>

<p>I find that teen males are more honest than most. They are unvarnished in their unwillingness to put effort into meaningless tasks. I believe most of them hunger for a place and occupation that fits – and many are NOT willing to sell their soul to go into plastics or whatever the current high school administration deems appropriate.</p>

<p>Your post shows that it is impossible to know all the details in another poster’s life. I am a paraplegic. Believe me, sir, my kid knows all too well how to deal with minutiae and repetitive household tasks. He’s had to help me since he could toddle. He is amazingly cheerful and sweet – and he sees why the household stuff is necessary and how he makes a difference. </p>

<p>What he is less inclined to do is 50 math problems that are exactly the same, particularly when he grasped the concept in the first problem. I think he has a point. Alas, many teachers grade on compliance, not mastery. He will get an A on the exam and an F in homework. Do I berate him for this? Yep, a little. But I surely don’t want him to end up in a college environment that has more of that to serve up. </p>

<p>I’m glad your offspring gained some satisfaction from athletics. We haven’t really had the time or money to indulge in that fashion. Different strokes for different families.</p>

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<p>I had a high scoring SAT son with a good, but not perfect, GPA (wrung out by much suffering over many hours during high school)- he would take three hours to complete a mundane worksheet package that another student could complete in forty minutes. I suffered through watching over the “A exams/F homework” dynamic for many (frustrating) years so I understand your situation there! Many colleges will accept a lower GPA with a really high SAT score. Whatever college your child attends, there will be those classes they find boring and the mundane work will have to get done. Having tried it out with both of my kids, I am not entirely convinced that the “hardest” or “most challenging” or higher ranked school necessarily peaks their interest more than a “lessor” school. My best advice is to have them start out with a doable schedule at a school they love in an area they like to live in. I am convinced that most kids who really want it can get a valuable education at nearly any college in the US so send them wherever the best fit is. Unfortunately, picking a college is a little like a blind date. Students don’t really know what to expect until they are already attending. Good luck, it is easier in college as there are not as many tiny little assignments. Students either learn the material or not, do the reading or not, write the papers or not, and pass the exams or not. If you have an idea of where your son is looking, he can try to meet students from that school online and get copies of various class syllabi to see if he can figure out what the busy work quotient is and how interesting the classes sound. You will get more specific college suggestions in the College Admissions forum if you post more details about where you are looking and what you are looking for, along with his stats, including classes and EC’s, etc. I know he will get a lot of respect from admissions for the extra family duties he has had to help out with over the years so be sure to suggest he mention that somewhere on the applications.</p>

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<p>Olymom, </p>

<p>It is much to your S’s credit that he steps up and helps you with your difficult personal situation–in my view, much more to his credit than any SAT score.</p>

<p>But that having been said, we have very different perspectives on what it is we need to teach our children. You say “our great nation was founded by some very bright guys who were fed up with the “way things were”” and “he is less inclined to do is 50 math problems that are exactly the same, particularly when he grasped the concept in the first problem. I think he has a point. Alas, many teachers grade on compliance, not mastery.” Well, the real world pays off on performance, not potential or abstract competence to your son’s. And except for a few truly extraordinary people, that means doing whatever it takes, often including tasks that you see as boring, stupid, inane and pointless. That is the number one message that we need to send our children (not saying that I was particularly good at it)</p>

<p>Finally, a word about my S and athletics. I only included the reference because the next logical question after “your S is like mine” is “what happened to your S in the college admissions process?” and because of the athletics, S’s situation was not comparable. But I will say this. S worked reasonably hard on his sport in high school and was rewarded for it, beginning to teach him the less that doing what it takes pays off. But he also realizes now that if he had worked even harder (including more boring drills) he would have had more opportunities. And he regrets that.</p>

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<p>Olymom, a good work ethic is perhaps the greatest predictor of success in college. Contrary to what many on CC believe, or say they believe, natural intelligence can only take a student so far – usually through half of the first semester. This reality hits not only the students who don’t like the “minutiae and repetitive tasks” but also those who got straight As in a non-demanding academic environment. The sooner your son realizes this, the better off he will be. Many students need to mature and to figure out what they really want in life before they can tackle demanding coursework. Northstarmom’s S2 is an example of this.</p>

<p>Not putting effort into meaningless tasks – or more exactly, what your son sees as meaningless tasks – will hamper him if he doesn’t realize that such completing such tasks will eventually lead him to what he wants. We have this problems in my family’s young male adults: they have grand plans but don’t want to put the effort to get there. One of these “boys” is now 26, without a college degree, and still dreaming of being a lawyer. Another is 21, barely enough credits to say he went to college for a semester because he didn’t hand in the work he thought was worthless and failed many classes, and still tells people he’d like to be a physicist or computer scientist. There are TWO other examples of this in my family. And these kids were B to B+ students in high school. Like your son, they are all caring and generous young men who can complete tasks they care about, just not the ones that they see no point in.</p>

<p>I wrote the above not to scare you but to show that your support of his “honesty” in not doing “meaningless tasks” is counterproductive. In the work force, he is going to have to do even more tasks that he doesn’t see the value in. Learning to jump through hoops is essential to advancing one’s own goals.</p>

<p>But I think your son CAN succeed given the right academic environment. He is clearly bright. A small LAC with a tight knit community might give him peer examples of what it takes to succeed. I don’t think it’s an issue of challenging v. too easy. He needs to find a school where he feels that he belongs – with the students as much as the academics.</p>

<p>For a reach, because of the SAT scores, you might want to look at Dickinson. Northstarmom mentioned Rollins, a beautiful campus in Winter Park, FL, which may also be a reach. (I know a B kid with stats like your son’s who got in to Rollins, although he was also an all-state soccer player.) Also look at Mary Washington in VA.</p>

<p>And do look at the 3.0 student thread. People have given some excellent suggestions there.</p>

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<p>Doing a math problem once because he ‘understands’ it may help him to remember how to do it for a day or a week, doing similar problems 50 times will help him to remember it forever, and to build on that strong foundation.</p>

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<p>RTR, it’s more anecdotal. Even if you look at the Common Data Sets for those schools you’ll see grades and scores are all very important so there isn’t any differentiation there. It does stand to reason that some state schools would take fliers on a student who could be brilliant but not engaged in HS. For that matter some LACs may also consider doing that.</p>

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<p>Speaking as a former Slacker Boy, I can state that there’s a very fine line between “I’m not doing it because it’s boring” and “I’m not doing it because it’s hard.” (I know, I know … the boy’s not a slacker, he just doesn’t wanna do the work.)</p>

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<p>Have 3 boys (also 2 daughters), single mom and a “fiscally” challenged household. And when they were younger it was the boys’ tendency to “slack”. Boys were in the gifted and talented programs and slept through class. It wasn’t until they heard from me everyday that they were one step closer to their adult future and they were responsible for where they would end up.</p>

<p>They too were varsity athletes but were responsible for their fees, uniforms and getting themselves to practice. They knew if they screwed up it would be gone. They managed to make it to all their practices, games and remain eligible grade-wise.</p>

<p>They also knew they were on the hook for college. They choices and actions they did in junior high and high school would affect their options come college admissions.</p>

<p>I am right there with Northstarmom they need to want it for themselves and be willing to put the work into getting there. I would help with the typing or the post office and money orders but beyond that they were on their own. They knew their grades, ECs, sports and their ability to perform test-wise would be determining their future.</p>

<p>They knew because I told them. Over and over. My job to do that and they knew their job was to be the best students they could be. If that meant checking the box and doing crappy, piddly assignments or “projects”, then so be it. Beats food stamps and free lunch any day.</p>

<p>So “slacker” sons figured it out (albeit with my reminders-nice way of saying nagging) and did their 50 math problems and “showed” their work. That alone made my boys crazy, if they can do it in their heads “why do we need to write it down?”</p>

<p>Had many more of these questions along the way. Told them 90% of success is just showing up. Do what is requested and then do what you need. If that was the game at that time and what was needed to move along, then they needed to get along. Play nice and still do what you need for you. And good things will happen.</p>

<p>It wasn’t easy. Was a struggle, still is. But it is working for us. Biggest slacker son graduated valedictorian, high SATs (no tutor $-no money) admitted EA to MIT, CalTech, Chicago and early acceptance to West Point and is now happy at an Ivy having the time of his life, studying and not “showing his work” in his physics and math classes. Spent this summer at Yale doing research and last summer at Harvard. </p>

<p>He learned how to do his 50 “useless” math problems and not complain. Just get it done and move on. Older brother also went on to a service academy and does not get frustrated with the military’s “hurry and wait”. After learning to also do his 50 math problems he realizes that is how the real world works. You will do inane, repetitive tasks in order to make your dreams a reality.</p>

<p>He knows that follow through is what is allowing him to fly a jet going supersonic. Lots of repetitive tasks to get to that point.</p>

<p>It is my job as his mom to support him even if that means telling him something he doesn’t want to hear. And that’s my honesty. Their high SAT scores were based mostly on genetics and their ability to take a test. That’s it.</p>

<p>Their grades were representative of their hard work and effort they were willing to put into getting their “job” done of being students. Their EC choices and sports were them learning time management, good sportsmanship, loyalty and ability and want to do for others. That is what challenging colleges are looking for. Students willing to look beyond their own world and do the tasks necessary to better themselves and others academically, socially and culturally.</p>

<p>OP, your son has his senior year left, it is up to him what he chooses to do with it. It can be a fresh start or it can be more of the same. What he does will be the next steps in his journey to adulthood. The question is, how do you want to be a part of it?</p>

<p>The college he attends will give him the education he desires. It will be completely dependent on how much he is willing to do. It will be what he makes of it, regardless if it is a challenging school or a “easier” one. </p>

<p>I wanted my children to become educated, more than I ever was. It was up to them to decide how badly they wanted that and what they were willing to do to get it. They were accountable, not me, not the teachers, not the homework, not the public school system. </p>

<p>Keep this in mind when he is looking at schools and the eventual application cycle and its results.</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>Great post kat!</p>

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<p>kat, I totally agree with you (Mom of 2 sons-both now in college). Great post!</p>

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<p>I agree with NewHope33. There is also a fine line between “I’m not doing it because it is boring” and “I’m not doing it because there is something FUN I’d rather be doing.”</p>

<p>If there has ever been a day in my life when I did not have to do something boring, I sure can’t remember it. You have to look at the boring stuff as getting to you toward your goal. Some people have a harder time figuring that out than others.</p>