High School background affecting college performance

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>S. is about to enter his sophomore year in college. He completed a year of General Biology and a year of General Chemistry this past fall and spring. Much to his dismay, he ended the year with a 3.0, having mostly B- and Cs in his science coursework. </p>

<p>I am very supportive of his premedical endeavor, but looking back I can see how his high school curriculum partly has something to do with a poor first year. His public high school was not very well known for good college preparation, having no rigor and teachers flying free ‘As’ to students to keep their students happy. As a result of this, I think he is lacking the study skills necessary to maintain a high grade point average in college. How can I help him overcome the difficult duty to catch up with his peers? </p>

<p>After reading much around a bit, I am wondering if a post-bac would be a great option to pursue after he graduates. I wonder if he'd be able to stop taking science classes until after he graduates - when he goes in to do a post-bac. This will allow him to focus on improving his gpa in the non-science classes and gain better study skills. Do students who attend post-bacs have very similar backgrounds? My only concern would be funding, as I’m sure he will not be eligible for financial aid after graduating with a bachelor’s degree. If this is a good option, what can he do now to be competitive for such programs? How are these programs funded? Are these programs rigorous for "non-science oriented" kids?</p>

<p>Also open to new ideas! Thank you in advance, TiansMom</p>

2

<p>There are 2 kinds of post bacc programs: Career changer and Grade enhancing.</p>

<p>I assume you’re taking about career changer post baccs.</p>

<p>The only aid for these programs are unsub federal loans and private loans. The best, most successful programs are at private schools and are quite expensive. (Think $60+K)</p>

<p>Because your son has already taken some of his required sciences, he may not be eligible for some of programs. Entry requirements vary a great deal so you and he will need to look carefully into this. Many require a minimum GPA for admission–but the minimum varies by program. Some don’t have any admission requirements at all and will accept all comers.</p>

<p>The successful completion of a post bacc program does not guarantee admission** to med school. Admission rates vary all over the place and 50% placement is considered very good.</p>

<p>**A few very top post bacc program offer linkages–which is guarantee of admission to a certain med school providing the student meets certain conditions (GPA, MCAT and sometimes graduation from a specific undergrad.)</p>

<p>The students (2) I know of who have successfully did career changer post baccs have been very strong, very highly motivated students intent on a goal. </p>

<p>~~~</p>

<p>As for how to improve your son’s study skills–there are usually study skills and time management seminars offered at most college. (At the Academic Support Center or whatever its equivalent is called at your son’s college.)</p>

<p>Since his high school lacked rigor, he may need to step back and identify his underlying academic weaknesses. Often these will be related to math skills, particularly in trig and pre-calc. Has he taken math placement/readiness exam at his college? Sometime these will pinpoint what skills he’s missing. </p>

<p>Is your son willing to retake coursework he’s done poorly in? DO medical schools allow grade replacement where only the retake is included in GPA calculations.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>Rigor depends on the program. At most he will be taking his coursework with current undergrads and competing against undergrad pre-meds–some of whom will be extremely well prepared for tough science classes. There may or may not be additional tutoring available for post bacc students, depending on the program.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>AMCAS has a searchable database of post-bacc programs:</p>

<p><a href=“https://services.aamc.org/postbac/[/url]”>https://services.aamc.org/postbac/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>depending on the college, C’s predominate in Frosh science courses, so it may not be his study skills per se, but lack of HS prep. At a lot of colleges, many of the students in Gen Chem already aced AP Chem in HS. Ditto, students taking Calc 1 in college – they may have scored a 5 on the AP test, but are foregoing the AP credits for the ‘easy A’ (or so they think).</p>

<p>To earn A’s, he’ll have to catch up to his peers, and that may mean studying nearly 24/7. Forego EC’s and fun college stuff. Instead, head to the library. Attend office hours. Take the TA to coffee for extra help. Work as many practice problems as he can find. Try to find a balanced curriculum, with some easier courses to offset the rigor of the STEM.</p>

<p>But if study skills, head over to the Study Center, or whatever his college calls it, for assistance.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

<p>P.S. which Chem course did you son end up taking: Intro to Chem (for those with no/little Chem background), or Gen Chem for science majors?</p>

4

<p>Hey WayOutWestMom,</p>

<p>Thank you for your long and informational post! I’ll look into that AAMC link and do more research about specific programs. </p>

<p>Do you think taking a fifth year instead might be a better option with costs in mind? Does the average post-bac program provide “more” than what simply taking a fifth year would provide? </p>

<p>He has not taken a math course yet. He feels math is his weakest subject and is afraid of doing how he’ll do. The last math course he took in high school was a pre-calc course but doesn’t remember much. He received an A in that course but I would not put much weight on that grade.</p>

<p>At this point, he is open to do anything to improve his chances - including taking the DO route after repeating his courses.</p>

5

<p>Hey bluebayou,</p>

<p>Your comment makes sense, he earned a few As in a few of his non-science related courses so he may know how to study but science (and math) is his weak point.</p>

<p>Are you suggesting he continue with registering for science courses this upcoming semester? At this point, we were considering aiming for the application cycle after graduation at the earliest - if he decides to continue with another science course. He was thinking to take one science course, either Organic Chemistry or Physics. But he has also considered putting science off for at least this year (and maybe even for the rest of his college career to take them when he enters a post-bac program - should he decide on that route).</p>

<p>Concerning the Chem course, he has taken General Chemistry for science majors. He barely passed the placement exam and after some thought, decided to take the course - thinking he’ll be saving both money and time at the time. </p>

<p>He earned the following in each course-
Chem I lecture, lab: B-, B-
Chem II lecture, lab: C, B-
Bio I lecture, lab: A, C
Bio II leture,lab: C, C</p>

6

<p>Honestly, unless he’s at one of the very top post-bacc programs which offer intense advising and packaging for applicants, I really don’t see much benefit over doing a 5th year at his undergrad.</p>

<p>I would strongly suggest that your son step down in math and retake pre-calc at his college so that he can master math foundational skills. Stronger math skills will benefit him in chem and physics. Plus he will need to take stats before he sits for the MCAT as the 2015 MCAT will include stats in all three science/social science sections.</p>

<p>The big drop in bio between first and second semester concerns me. I think your son might be relying too much on trying to get by in bio with pure memorization. That doesn’t work, particularly as the material gets more sophisticated/complex/extensive. What he needs to focus on is understanding basic concepts and then applying these concepts to new information. This is a skill he’ll need in spades for medical school and one that can be learned–although if he hasn’t learned how to do this already, he’s got a whole lot of catching up to do very quickly. </p>

<p>BB is also right about the amount of effort it takes to do well in college. Both of my kiddos have mentioned they frequently did tons of extra problems sets (often going onto the internet to get problems sets from other colleges using different textbooks) and also frequently did extra readings above and beyond the assignments.</p>

<p>~~~</p>

<p>P.S. he should not take physics unless he feels confident in his math skills. Even algebra-based physics (which were not options at either of my D’s colleges) requires good math skills. I would strongly recommend he take trig/pre-calc again before he takes physics.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t recommend that he forgo taking science and math colleges in college in order to get a higher GPA and then take post bacc classes after college. He will likely do similarly after college, as he would now, and it would be much better to build a solid foundation now than later (consider how much he would struggle in medical school if he doesn’t prepare himself for it now!).</p>

<p>I don’t know what the best option is for your son, but I would recommend trying to figure out what his weaknesses are. What did he have trouble with in his classes? Keeping up with the material? The format of the tests? Understanding the material? Those are all very different problems, and they should be addressed differently. If he’s missing prerequisite knowledge there may be a lower level class that he can take (though I don’t know how that would work now that he’s taken a higher level class). He could also work with a tutor to help, or consider tutoring services on campus (many have help rooms or tutors for very popular classes like Calculus and Chemistry). If he needs help with his study skills, he could consider working with tutors or the campus study center. If he had trouble keeping up with the material, he could consider dropping other extracurricular activities or jobs that he may be doing. If it was the tests being more difficult than he was expecting, that may improve with more experience with college tests. He may have to buckle down and work harder until he figures out a system that works out for him, but that can be done taking science classes. The only concern I have for him figuring out study skills with non-science classes is that the approach to those classes may be different than what he needs to do for science and math classes. I would hate for him to not pursue science now, and then do just as poorly in a post-bacc program, where there may be less of a support system than in his college.</p>

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<p>Hey WayOutWestMom,</p>

<p>If he were to continue with a science course this coming year, what would you suggest? Should he retake General biology or General chemistry again? We’re aware that doing well Organic Chemistry is looked highly upon by medical school admissions and would not want to run the risks of ruining the grades received in this course. Having said this, after much reflection, we don’t know if doing bad in the prerequisite bio and chemistry courses - without knowing why - would end in the same grades or worse in higher level biology and chemistry related courses (higher level biology and organic chemistry).</p>

<p>I have encouraged him to take the math placement and see where he places. He was going to postpone math even farther in his college years but it seems that a math course is the first step in possibly improving his study skills with regard to STEM courses.</p>

<p>After doing much reflection, he admits that he did not “go beyond” as your daughters have. With his weak science background, he claims his main goals in these courses were to read and try to understand and then do only the assigned problems because of the limited time he has in studying for the rest of his courses. Maybe he should have taken the intro chemistry course after all.</p>

9

<p>Hey baktrax,</p>

<p>I realized the problem of having only science courses in a post-bac after doing a little research - and with his weak science background I can see where you’re going. Looks like the best option would be to spread out the science courses evenly throughout the rest of his semesters–as bluebayou pointed out.</p>

<p>With regard to science courses, he claims his main issue was understanding at the pace the professor teached. In trying to learn, he likes to go in-depth and focus on details - causing him to fall behind. He would eventually understand the material but probably not until after the tests! I believe it is a combination of “a combination of the above.”</p>

<p>I’ll see if he’d be open to meeting with his guidance counselor to help him seek help in school. He did not mention anything about tutors so I presume he doesn’t go to tutoring or ask for help.</p>

10

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</p>

<p>That’s what I was afraid of. In an earlier post over the summer, you sought advice about which course to take, and at that time I suggested the Intro course, due to his ‘weak’ Chem background relative to the other kids.</p>

<p>Gen Chem does not require high level math – Alg I will pretty much do it. IMO, the real issue is the forced grading curve and the lack of prep relative to others, who have already aced AP Chem. (Strong math skills will help in Physics and Organic, however, organic in particular requires strong reasoning skills which can be learned by higher level math.</p>

<p>btw: lab writes up are a huge time sink, and require strong writing and analytical skills to score well. The worse part is that they typically come with even harsher curves. In my D’s lab of ~20 students, the TA announced on Day 1 that she was limited to awarding only 1 or 2 A’s for the semester.</p>

<p>If you can afford it, suggest a tutor?</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>^^This is the perfect recipe for average grades. And average grades are exactly what he got.</p>

<p>He absolutely has to step up his game if he’s going compete as a pre med. Kids with weaker science backgrounds simply cannot do ‘just enough to get by’ and expect to earn top grades. (For that matter, even strong students cannot do just enough to get by and expect to earn top grades.)</p>

<p>I suspect more than anything else this is why he is not getting the grades he wants. It has little to do with his high school background and whole lot more with his work ethic and time management skills.</p>

<p>Going forward, he need to be in a math class next year. Full stop. He can advance on to OChem if he’s willing to put in the tons of work it will require to do well. (In terms of knowledge, there isn’t a whole lot of carry over between gen chem and ochem.) </p>

<p>If he’s anxious about Ochem, then he could take upper level bio classes instead–genetics and A&P are both useful for the MCAT.</p>

<p>And warning–</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>He absolutely cannot do this in Ochem. Ochem covers a whole lot of material in a very short amount of time. (Which is why adcomms like to use it as a proxy for judging the likelihood of success in medical school classes. Med school classes cover enormous amounts of material in days and students are expect to memorize, conceptualize, disgorge the correct answers on the exams, rinse and repeat on weekly basis.)</p>

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<p>And like everyone else–I recommend tutoring. Most schools have free tutors at the Academic support centers. Private tutoring may also be necessary. (The cost of private tutor–typically an upper classman or recent grad–will vary by location. I know that $30-$50/hour is common where my kiddos live.) He should also attend recitations every single week and seek out TAs/profs during office hours if he doesn’t understand something from class.</p>

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</p>

<p>This may be the real problem. I understand the desire to want to really understand something, but there’s just no time (and this is coming from a biochemistry major). Especially in the sciences, there is much, much more to know. There is always more to know, more exceptions and details that are important for advanced study or research but irrelevant for this particular class. He will likely learn those details at some point in a higher level course (or at some point it will just click!), but now really isn’t the time. This will come from experience, but he should really try to use whatever resources are provided (problem sets, old or sample exams, asking the professor or TA) to figure out what to focus on. Going above and beyond is great, if you have the time, but it doesn’t sound like he was able to manage with the amount of science classes he had. It’s also great practice for medical school, where he may REALLY not have the time to go above what is required of them, since med students are expected to absorb a tremendous amount of information in a very short amount of time.</p>

<p>I’ve found that deeper understanding comes with time, experience, and repetition. Perhaps a tutor who has taken the course before would be able to direct his studies further. A friend who’s taken the course might even be willing to help him out for free, or the school may provide free tutoring or assistance for students. Even if he can’t find that, TAs and the professor are always free resources to get a little direction or have his questions answered. When I was a TA, I definitely saw many students who got caught up in the details that were really unnecessary for the course. It’s great to be curious and want to know more, but he will have many more in-depth courses in which he can delve deeper, if he doesn’t have the time to do so now.</p>

14

<p>What a student learned in the second grade of elementary school could sometimes be useful when he is in college.</p>

<p>DS’s second grade teacher told her students that if there are more than 5 words that are new to you on a page of a book you read, this book is not at the proper level for you.</p>

<p>My point is that the real reason why some students can learn some materials presented by the professor seemingly faster is that the proportion of completely new materials is less for them. Also, these students may have been “hardened” in their study skills due to their more extensive/intensive learning experience in the past.</p>

<p>DS was a biology major. After he had taken many classes in his major, he once memtioned that many concepts in different classes are closely related if not the same. He could read the textbook or the class nottes much faster than he could when he was a freshman.</p>

<p>On another bio subject (cell bio) he took relatively early in his college career, I think he mostly relied on his hardened study skill to get through that course. This is because he really had not taken many bio related classes before that relatively challenging class at his school (Unlike most premeds at his school, he even did not take AP bio in high school!) He did mention a point that is interesting for this class, if you keep studying very hard on this extremely dense textbook, everything you learn but could not fully understand will start to make sense toward the end of the semester. But I do not understand how he could still manage to ace all of his weekly tests even when he claimed he did not fully understand it at that time.</p>

<p>For his chemistry class, I think he had very solid preparation in high school. The high school he attended helped him a lot (but he also needed to be an excellent student in his AP chem class. It was rumored that he was the “curve breaker” in his AP chem class. He was more a “gunner” in high school as it was easier to stand out back then.)</p>

15

<p>Taking a 5th year can be disastrous as well if his school will not provide aid for that year…and many will NOT. </p>

<p>He needs to fix his GPA, brush up on his study skills, and improve his science/math foundation.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, this summer is nearly gone so it’s too late for some CC classes to better his foundation or to take some non-pre-reqs to “free up” his school year schedule. </p>

<p>However, he could look over his schedule and figure out which non-pre-reqs could he take at a CC next summer that his univ will accept.</p>

<p>What is his major? Maybe he needs to choose an easier major so that his pre-reqs are his hardest classes…and to free up more study time?</p>

16

<p>Can you clarify?</p>

<p>In your first post, you say that your son is a rising sophomore. However, a year ago, you posted and said that your son is a rising sophomore. </p>

<p>Is your son a rising junior?</p>

17

<p>Hey bluebayou,</p>

<p>He admits that he now wished he would have listened to you when you said that. I also wished I’d have put more pressure in guiding him in that direction when he registered last year.</p>

<p>He will be taking a math course for sure this fall semester to build up. I also take you don’t recommend taking any lab sciences until he builds up the skills gained in higher level math classes so we’ll leave Organic Chemistry and physics off for at least this year while focusing on building his math skills.</p>

<p>Tutoring is something I am willing to invest in. Depending on the science/math course(s) he takes next semester, I’ll make sure we hire an appropriate tutor. Thanks for your insight!</p>

18

<p>Hey WayOutWestMom,</p>

<p>Thank for your post once again. I’ll make sure he reads this thread also and see if he can push a harder in going beyond.</p>

<p>I think he’d be more open to upper level biology and will leave Organic Chemistry for next year while he tries to fix this mess. He is set on taking a genetics course without lab with regards to science courses. Does anyone object to this? <em>grin</em> (We’ll be listening closely this time :))</p>

19

<p>Hey baktrax,</p>

<p>Thanks for your post! It’s nice to hear that you know where he’s coming from with regards to going in detail. I am not a science oriented person so I did not know why he did that in his courses.</p>

<p>After three strikes - we will get a tutor for sure!</p>

20

<p>Hey mcat2,</p>

<p>Thanks for your post. I agree that most of the students who do well in these intro courses have a solid foundation from the very beginning. And that repetition should make it easier in the long run. </p>

<p>I find that my son has no problem studying non-science related subjects so I find your post interesting. In addition what I posted in previous posts, I think the science courses are a bit “different” compared to non-science courses because of the harsher curves in these courses and the competition.</p>