<p>For those of us who can't get enough of this stuff, today's Washington Post has an article about local reaction to the Newsweek Top 100 High Schools. Fifteen of the top 100 are in the DC metro area and of course Jay Mathews is a major Washington Post seller of newspapers...uh, I mean contributor.</p>
<p>There were two things I was especially interested to see in the article. The first: the executive director of the AP program for the College Board states that CB will use a new measure called the "equity and excellence" index to track the number of students by school who pass (score 3 or higher) on the AP exams. Remember the Newsweek/Post index just tracks the number of students taking AP/IB tests, not how they actually score. This would seem to be a much better measure of success in terms of whether the students are really learning anything. At my D's school (on the top 100) last year 45 kids scored 1 or 2 on AP World History which I estimate was perhaps a third of the kids taking the test.</p>
<p>A recent study by the US Dept. of Education that followed 13,000 students from 10th grade thru college, concluded that the strongest predictor of college completion is not grades, not SAT scores nor class rank, but how intense the students high school courses were. Those who took the toughest classes were the most likely to succeed and receive their bachelors degrees. Students, for example, who took calculus in high school had the single highest success rate, whether they achieved a high grade or not. Given the low number of students in the US who actually complete college on time (a mere 18%), I think it is encouraging that we focus on schools that encourage students to take rigorous courses. Clearly, it was not the grades that matter (point of whole studyt!!!!!) An Achieve survey concurred, "fewer than one-quarter of high school graduates feel that they were significantly challenged and faced high expectations in order to graduate from high school" and "an overwhelming majority of graduates say that they would have worked harder if their high school demanded more of them and set higher academic standards"Further, more than half of college students say that "high school left them unprepared for the work and study habits expected in college," and an astonishing 31 percent of students who think they were extremely well prepared for college level work nevertheless took at least one remedial course. Worse still, 41 percent of employers are "dissatisfied with graduates' ability to read and understand complicated materials," 42 percent are dissatisfied with graduates' ability to think analytically, 39 percent with their ability to apply what they learn to solve real-world problems, and 34 percent with their communications skills.
AND, a meager 18 percent of college professors "feel that most of their students come to college extremely or very well prepared." In fact, "even at colleges with competitive admissions policies that only let in high-performing students, only 30 percent of instructors say that most of their students come to college well prepared."</p>
<p>How can you complain about students taking AP classes when US students in math and science are almost at the bottom compared to most other countries in the world?</p>
<p>I, too, was disgusted by the stupid Newsweek article. As to the Dept of Ed study, I'm glad that there's finally "official" recognition of the real predictors of college achievement (measured more than just by grades), that some of us were lucky enough to have rec'd from our own high school educations, which is also identical to the training my own D has rec'd in her (different) h.s. I completely agree that complex levels of comprehension, analysis, & expression are critical to college mastery, & that too many high schools are deficient in that training -- maybe many/most of the h.s.'s mentioned in Newsweek.</p>
<p>What I was "complaining" about was not that students take AP classes, but the particular aspect of this phenomenon that has schools pushing students to take AP classes: (1) for which they might not be academically qualified, (2) which lead mostly to the greater glory of the school, not the student, and (3) which don't prepare students adequately for the exam (since the benefit to the school is gained merely by having students take the exams, and not tied to how well they do on the tests.)</p>
<p>I'm not sure I totally buy into the premise (stated in the Newsweek article) that even students who do poorly on AP tests have significantly higher college-graduation rates than those who don't take AP--well, presumably these are kids who are academically motivated (or else they would not likely be in the AP classes in the first place.) But are these kids academically qualifed to be in the classes? And does the AP class do a good job of preparing them for the test? Well, it should unless the school cares only about the number of kids taking the tests and not how well the kids perform on the tests (which is just what the Mathews index fosters.)</p>
<p>You mention that students who take calculus in high school are more successful in college and that makes perfect sense. In many high schools it is the academic achievers who proceed through the math curriculum to the level of calculus. </p>
<p>I would prefer to see our local school system pursue a quality approach to AP, by which I mean, the class really teaches the subject matter at a college level, not merely teaching to the test. At our school we have a 75% pass rate meaning a score of 3 or better on a single exam. But the other part of that is that last year 2,033 students at our school took AP exams (including freshmen!!) Our total school population is about 2,400. So 1,543 received a 3 or better on at least one test. But how many kids received a 2 or a 1 overall? Not merely the difference of 490 students but probably many more. A neighboring school with similar demographics has a 90% pass rate but they did not even make Mathews' list.</p>
<p>You are missing the whole point. Bottom line is that students that challenge themselves with hard courses eventually graduate from college. Nothing more. Grades in rigorous class they took (like getting a C) did not effect whether they would graduate. What are you talking about academically qualified? Are you suggesting that everyone can't learn and be challenged??? Grades on AP tests don't mean anything unless you are applying to an Ivy and need a 5 to get college credit. If you get a 1 or a 2, so what ? The point is that it is better to challenge yourself and fail then sit in a classroom of morons. Sorry but that is how it is.</p>
<p>Big difference between challenging yourself because you want the challenge and feeling forced to take the challenge because it's the only show in town. Unfortunately, in our local high school--fueled by the stampede by our school officials to move up on the Matthews' "list"--the intensified, honors, and gifted classes have virtually disappeared. Why? There are only so many teachers, so many classrooms, and so many classes that can be taught. It's either AP or regular, which has pushed many students into AP classes who might otherwise have elected to take a slightly less rigorous--but still challenging--accelerated class (if only they could!) AP should not become the only attractive alternative, but at our high school, at least, it darn near is. The logical extension of this entire AP craze, it seems to me, is that soon it won't be good enough merely to have large numbers of students taking AP classes--they'll also have to excel (a la the College Board's "equity and excellence" index.) Great. Let's ratchet up the pressure on kids. But wait--the AP's are graded on a distribution curve...so no matter how hard students "try", there will always be a significant percentage of 1's and 2's. Mel, I believe that every student can be and should be challenged. It's just that AP classes are not--nor should they be--the end-all, be-all. Call me crazy, but I have a real problem with the College Board and the Matthews list "dictating" what constitutes a challenging curriculum.</p>
<p>The first time I saw the high school ranking based on the "Challenge Index" I worried that schools would take action to move up in this (to me, contrived) ranking. Seemed to me all they had to do was sign kids up for many AP tests. (Is taking the AP class actually a prereq for taking the test?) Or, just cram every student into several AP classes, and of course require that they take the AP test. Matthews would view this as a positive thing because it is the challenge of taking the AP class that is important. Makes me queasy to read that this is actually happening.</p>
<p>mxitxi,<br>
I agree with your observations and I would add to your comment about the CB and Mathews list dictating the curriculum that we should also include the media for hyping it and school administrators for falling under the power of the list. One local school system refused to comment for today's Washington Post artice "citing the perceived power of the press."</p>
<p>The bottom line is that high school students learn and thrive. Being in a class that is over their heads (because the administrators pushed them to take it) or being in a class that is taught almost entirely with AP practice tests does not promote true learning.</p>
<p>I am thrilled to announce that the HS my son is graduating from was ranked ** the best HS** of all HS's that my son attended (total of one). And this HS is one of tens of thousands of high schools throughout the country that he could have attended had we lived elsewhere! This is a ranking system I really believe in!</p>
<p>The only downside is that this same school is also ranked dead last in the same criteria. Bummer, but I won't dwell on that.</p>
<p>The problem with the AP classes is that not all are equal. Some are glorified honors classes, some only teach to the test, only some require taking the AP exam, so just saying, oooohhhh, we have lots AP classes, isn't enough.</p>
<p>If people notice, a number of colleges aren't accepting as many AP classes for credit, and they are having tougher requirements for getting credit-3 or above on test for example</p>
<p>"How can you complain about students taking AP classes when US students in math and science are almost at the bottom compared to most other countries in the world?"</p>
<p>We are towards the bottom because we choose a different track. Other nations emphasize memorization, so as a result, they score really really well on standardized tests, which often can be beat with memorization. However, once you move into the Olympiads section, students are tested on their prowess, and US students can compete with the best of the rest.</p>
<p>VEROFL. Very extended rolling on floor laughing out loud.</p>
<p>dig, your post really did it for me. We need more of these personalized ranking systems. I am tired of generic ranking systems which do not relate to MY kid. Let's hear it for ranking systems that "fit."</p>
<p>Digmedia,
Thank you for my chuckle of the day!! According to the same criteria, as I always tell my children, I am the best mother you ever had. But I guess that means I also finish dead last in the same category!</p>
<p>But that is not exactly what the list did, its what it should have done;;;and how do we know the title fits....</p>
<p>If you search this website, you will see many threads on AP classes, how some aren't really AP, how some just teach to the test, how with many there are too many pre reqs and with some, none, and many don't require taking the test, and there was even one post recently about the teacher teaching half the physics class, and to leave halfway through the test</p>
<p>So for a school to be judged on AP classes is just vague.</p>
<p>since jay excludes any school with a testing or other entrance requirements for more than 50% of students, so privates are not counted. That is also why some top public magnet schools are excluded.</p>
<p>This is a very interesting article which highlights many of the methodology problems with Mathew's List. It is conceivable that any of us could make up a restricted criteria for establishing a list and come up with something just as useless as this list. If one were to look at many of the large comprehensive high schools on the list one would find that they have internal "magnet" type tracks which have "admission criteria" as well.</p>
<p>I am disgusted with this misinformation. Both of my children have attended one of the magnet schools listed in this article and I can assure you that there is NO comparison between any of the Tennessee schools on the the list and either of the two discussed in the article (which are in fact ranked one and two in the state by most lists). In fact, because neither has a football team and both have fewer general resources since the schools are smaller, students do not have the EC opportunities like football unless they go and compete for another school (which they allowed to do) thus restricting those opportunities. To make the list fair it should compare all publicly funded schools against average GPA in academic classes, graduation rates, percentage rates of students who attend college, number of PA, numbers enrolled and performance on AP exams and standardized scores. A little more challenging project but one that would truly yield the best.</p>
<p>One more word about "admission criterion" at the two schools listed. I hardly think that requiring a 7 stanine on standardized tests and no class lower than a B is unreasonable or unreachable for most good students.</p>
<p>I am still baffled why people pay any attention to what Jay Matthews has to say on education. I consider most of his articles to be poorly researched and dubious at best. </p>
<p>His latest ranking of high schools is another example of his overall lack of attention to details, if not lack of understanding of the subjects he writes about. How could he not be aware that a school may very well offer more than 25 AP, have a high participation rate, but fail to post SAT scores above 900? How could he remain oblivious to the fact that AP classes and statistics are subject to the most abject manipulation among public high schools? </p>
<p>Here's a report that discusses the situation in Texas. </p>
<p>"For example, Newsweek ranks WT White High School sixth in the state and 77th in the nation. However, when all indicators are considered, only 24% of their students achieve at or above the "college ready" score on the SAT (1110), and only 36% of their students have access to AP classes. Although their graduation rates and TAKS pass rates are not necessarily bad, at 83% and 85%, respectively, they are not among the highest in the state. </p>
<p>Six high schools, who did not make it into Newsweek top 100, rate among the top 25 high schools in the state. Dallas ISD's School for the Talented and Gifted ranks #1, posting incredible performance scores for graduation rates (100%), high SAT/ACT scores (80%), and the percentage of students taking AP classes (94%). Likewise, Carnegie Vanguard High School in the Houston school district rates 7th in our list, achieving above average performance with 63% of students taking AP classes and 60% of students receiving high SAT/ACT scores."</p>