<p>Educators sharply criticize the Newsweek ranking system that gives a numerical value to each high school solely based upon the number of AP exams taken divided by the number of graduating seniors.</p>
<p>My sentiments exactly.</p>
<p>Best lines from the article: "Asked about Newsweek's rankings, Les Perelman, a director of undergraduate writing at M.I.T., quoted H. L. Mencken, "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong."</p>
<p>And Jay Mathews' last comment: "I would have preferred we call the list the most challenging schools, the schools trying to reach as many kids as possible," he said. "But I will defend 'Best.' 'Best' is a very elastic term in our society."</p>
<p>Mommusic, those quotes you gave hone in on what is so thought provoking about this article - that the concept of "best" according to this numbers driven ranking system is based on sheer quantity and not quality. The Newsweek numerical values are based on the number of students taking AP exams - and just that - the number of exams taken without any regard to how the students performed on the tests.</p>
<p>The selling of the AP......by the cash cow CB that is what this best is about. I graduated from a high school which did not offer AP classes nor did they teach to the test. Rather my high school used the amazing talents of the faculty to reach higher, dig deeper and allow us to learn much more than an AP class/exam.</p>
<p>This AP test stuff is nonsense.My d took a boatload of AP courses and zero AP exams.Our rational why waste the money? I'd rather see ease into University life.
I also don't think many Universities (if any) care about these tests.She was accepted into everyschool she applied to and several of them are listed here in the Top cc universities threads</p>
<p>And these idiotic rankings have the inevitable consequences. In our small state, 3 schools "made the list." Two are typically considered among the top, but were ranked in reverse order. The other I'd never known to be well-thought of before, so congrats to it.</p>
<p>Here's the consequence: My own S' hs was on the list, but lower ranked than the other school not usually considered the same caliber locally. Like jpro's d, many kids at our hs took the AP courses for the challenge, for the record as having chosen the "most difficult courseload." But many didn't take the AP tests: our town has some families of modest income and $84/shot is a big deal; many don't care about credit for the course in college; several AP teachers here proudly refused to teach to the test. But starting next year, the school is requiring all AP kids to take the AP test.</p>
<p>They state some valid reasons, but I really wonder if it isn't pressure to "climb the rankings."</p>
<p>Jpro:</p>
<p>I'm distressed that you continue to spout this anti-AP test rhetoric after I posted reasons why test scores matter and you understood the logic. </p>
<p>AP scores DO matter. My S would not have gotten into the courses he did if he had not scored 5 on his APs. He would not have been eligible for Advanced Standing if he had not had had the requisite number of AP scores of 5. And if he wanted to transfer, he could use those for credit at his new school, but not the grades he got in the AP classes. </p>
<p>There is a reason why at least half of Harvard students qualify for Advanced Standing: that's because they took at least 4 AP tests and scored 5 on all of those. And many who do not qualify took AP tests as well. The same goes for HYPSM and even Caltech which makes most of its students retake courses. </p>
<p>NYT: Odd Math for 'Best High Schools' List</p>
<p>
[Quote]
A rating system that rewards quantity without measuring quality produces some truly bizarre results.</p>
<p>For example, Forshay Learning Center, a high-poverty school in Los Angeles, is ranked No. 414 on Newsweek's list with a ratio of 1.888 AP tests per graduating senior; Lexington High in well-to-do suburban Boston is ranked No. 441, with a ratio of 1.831. For Newsweek, it does not matter that Forshay students failed 83 percent of their AP tests with scores of 1's and 2's; while at Lexington, 91 percent were 3's, 4's or the top grade of 5--qualifying those students for college credits."
"Shouldn't results on the test count for something?" asked Michael Jones, Lexington High's principal.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I know Lexington High quite well. It is where Harvard, MIT and other Boston-area profs send their kids. It is, by most accounts, one of the best schools in the country. And yet, it ranks behind Forshay???</p>
<p>Two threads about this, just posted this in the other one: </p>
<p>... Jay Mathews is fully aware that these rankings are bogus. His straightforward agenda, and if you read what he says it's obvious, is to promote the access of AP classes in poor neighborhoods. That's the reason he gives for not counting the scores. From Newsweek's FAQs of this year:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Alameda, CA: Your ranking is amazingly one-dimensional, since anyone can take and fail the AP exams...why not at least include percentages of takers who get scores of 3 and 4-5?
Jay Mathews: Ah, great question, which gets to the heart of why I decided to rate schools by participation, not scores. Most schools restrict access to AP. I hope I have shown how bad that is. But when you ask them about their AP program, they say, We're great! 90 percent of our kids passed the AP test! What they don't tell you is that they only let about two dozen kids take AP, their A students, and so the results were foreordained. It is a scam, and the list is designed in part to expose it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Last year someone asked, then why call this list the Best High Schools, why not just say, a list of high schools that are providing access to higher level classes. His answer? Attention on the newstands!</p>
<p>The FAQs from last year was selectively "edited" just before this year's list came out. In one Q, someone was reaming him out for the significance of the rankings and he comes out and actually says that he is "slightly ashamed" of the ranking aspect of the list. You're apparently not supposed to make any distinction there but just to note that a particular school is on the list, period. </p>
<p>Again, though, his mission is to advocate for a model a la the movie Stand and Deliver, based on the successful experience of a superlative math teacher, Jaime Escalante with a group of inner city kids sent to summer school for remedial math. This model was Mathews inspiration, and he wrote a book about Garfield High and what they accomplished there. So his goal is to raise the standards of American education - from the bottom up. </p>
<p>Bottom line is I have no issue with Mathew's ends , it's his misleading means to which I object.</p>
<p>Marite
I understand your logic but I disagree with your conclusion.Your logic is that the AP test scores that a kid gets in his junior year in high school play a big role in the college admissions process.I totally 100% disagree.You make a statement and simply because you make it you get huffy if people don't buy it.I ain't buying it.
Many people apparently do buy your argument because I noticed a lot of kids asking questions about AP credits and the like when we visited several schools at Admitted students days.If the kids want to bypass a course and get college credit for it than the AP test has merit.However,taking my own D's case,the AP tests were 100% irrelevant.And that last statement is not an opinion but a FACT.I also find it hard to believe that my D was the great exception in not taking these tests</p>
<p>I'm personally familiar with about a dozen schools on the list. Two are ranked two places apart when, in fact, they are not in the same educational universe. Others, among the best in the nation by accepted standards -- "model" schools really -- are ignored. The list is nothing more than marketing and regional boosterism, a sly attempt to give the locals something to cheer about so they can believe their public school is better than it actually is.</p>
<p>Well the Newsweek college "rankings" are bogus so why should the hs rankings be any differest.</p>
<p>jpro, the significance of AP test scores in admissions is probably dependent on the colleges to which a student applies. Personally, I don't think that my son would have had the acceptances he had if had not scored well on AP and SAT II tests. With the tremendous variability of high school courses and grades, just TAKING the AP class can have almost no importance. The argument in favor of ANY standardized test is that it provides a way to equate the knowledge attained in a course. At the Ivy's and other selective colleges, I'm sure the majority of students took at least several AP classes AND exams. This may not be as significant a factor at less selective colleges.</p>
<p>One of my friends went to a school that is very highly ranked on the Newsweek list. She said that it was actually bad, because they would shove you into AP courses as sophomores, even if you weren't ready. They would have you take the AP test, even if your course wasn't really AP (for example, they wouldn't have two levels each of bio, chem, and physics: your first chem course is AP, your first physics course is AP, etc). </p>
<p>Obviously, there's a wealth factor going on. The list should be entitled, "Schools Where Parents Have the Money to Pay $84 Per AP Exam." Because that's exactly what it measures. Closest correlation is to money, not quality. Given the strong correlation between parental income and "achievement," though, the list seems valid.</p>
<p>"Your logic is that the AP test scores that a kid gets in his junior year in high school play a big role in the college admissions process.I totally 100% disagree."</p>
<p>I do NOT think that Marite has said that APs play a big role in ADMISSIONS. She is giving very precise -and absolutely correct- examples in the way the colleges use the AP for the benefit of the students. Alas, Marite's son and Harvard are far from being the "usual" AP candidate and AP user. The program worked well for them, since it did exactly what it is was supposed to do when it was created: provide Advanced Placement to ... advanced students who acquired knowledge that is NOT necessarily based on a high school curriculum. </p>
<p>I am unrepentant for my criticism of the explosion of the AP program, as well as it its use for a purpose for which it was NEVER intended: college admissions. My argument rests on a very simple proposal, and that is that high schools should be high schools and colleges should be colleges. The AP program furthers the unfortunate blurrying of the lines by trying to establish a de facto standard for high schools that is simply ... wrong. </p>
<p>As far as Matthews, time has come for me to drop the negative epithets I hurled at him in the past. From now on, I will call him the best writer on education ... with all the elasticity humanly feasible.</p>
<p>"The list should be entitled, "Schools Where Parents Have the Money to Pay $84 Per AP Exam." </p>
<p>Aries, scratch the surface a bit, and you'll find that the most egregious applications of the AP Program take place in states where the student does not pay for the fees, or even makes money for taking the exams.</p>
<p>SJmom</p>
<p>I found this site about 3 weeks ago and it has been very informative.However until I found this site the thought that my D should take AP tests in her junior year at high school wouldn't have occured to me in a millions years.I am sure that there are millions of people just like me.</p>
<p>There are thousands of kids getting accepted into very elite schools every year.I doubt if a small fraction of them have parents who are aware that taking AP tests in the junior year of high school is important.</p>
<p>Now perhaps in a tiny number of cases these jr year tests are tiebreakers but I am really incredoulous that anyone could think that these tests mean that much.If they did-the schools would tell you to take them like they tell you to take SAT II's.</p>
<p>My d did not apply to any "Ivies".But she was accepted into the nations top ranked BME program.That's pretty selective I would think by anyones definition.That school did not care one whit about her AP scores.</p>
<p>Than you Xiggi for undescoring the points I made--that AP scores do count for something other than admission. While I concur with you that the AP curriculum leaves much to be desired, I also think that AP classes are the most challenging classes to be found in a high school and the reason why, despite their shortcomings, students should be taking them. </p>
<p>This is not from Harvard's website, but from U Mich, a state university (and an excellent one):</p>
<p>FAQs - AP credit</p>
<p>Q: May I use my AP credits to meet the Distribution Requirement?
A: Advanced Placement credits may not be included as part of your Area Distribution. They may, however, be used as electives or as concentration prerequisites.</p>
<p>Q: How do I know if I received AP credits?
A: Because scores often are not reported until late summer, you may not know your Advanced Placement test scores when you come to Orientation. Your advisor can tell you what score you will need in order to receive degree credit, and together you should make your best guess about what related course (if any) to enroll in. Your AP credits should appear on your transcript by the middle of your first term.</p>
<p>Q: Will I receive credit for a course I take at UM if I already have AP credits for it?
A: Yes, but you will lose the AP credit.</p>
<p>Q: May I use my AP credits toward the 120 credits I need to graduate?
A: Yes. AP credits can be counted toward graduation.</p>
<p>Q: May I use my AP credits to meet course and concentration prerequisites?
A: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. For example, if you are planning on majoring in economics, you can use your AP credits in micro- and macroeconomics to meet the prerequisites for an economics concentration; whereas if you are a history concentrator, you need to know that AP credits do not count towards either the prerequisites or the concentration itself. See the individual department for clarification. This chart might help, too (if the credit transfers as "Departmental," that credit will not count as a specific course).</p>
<ul>
<li>It is important to note that each department has a different policy on Advanced Placement credits. Some departments do not allow students to use their AP credits to meet prerequisites. For a complete list of departments that accept AP credits, consult with your academic advisor or faculty concentration advisor.</li>
</ul>
<p><<from now="" on,="" i="" will="" call="" him="" the="" best="" writer="" on="" education="" ...="" with="" all="" elasticity="" humanly="" feasible="">></from></p>
<p>Oh, Xiggi, please don't. I enjoy Jay Mathews' columns (even got it bookmarked), and since I disagree with you on so few topics, I mightily enjoy the opportunities to push your buttons on Jay's talent. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Obviously, there's a wealth factor going on. The list should be entitled, "Schools Where Parents Have the Money to Pay $84 Per AP Exam." Because that's exactly what it measures. Closest correlation is to money, not quality. Given the strong correlation between parental income and "achievement," though, the list seems valid.
[/quote]
It's even more invidious than that, ariesathena.</p>
<p>One of the schools ranked very highly on the list is a magnet for the district's IB program, which comprises 25% of the school population. The other 75% is most successful at repeatedly failing the state-mandated criterion-referenced graduation test. Oh, and the school has a winning football team year after year. Just a few years ago, within the past decade, a group of about 20 of said football players gang-raped a mentally handicapped girl during an unsupervised (!) study hall during school hours. The school administration didn't even investigate the incident until AFTER the football season ended so as not to tarnish their record. Instead, they left the girl hanging with no support and transfered HER out of the school. Eventually, long after the event, charges were brought, the players convicted, and the vice principal responsible for discipline enforcement was himself transfered to another school where he lived happily ever after until his recent retirement--without so much as a day's loss of pay.</p>
<p>And in our area, the ability to pay for the test is not a factor as the districts pick up the tab for all students.</p>
<p>lderochi:</p>
<p>On this I agree. Xiggi is only applying Matthews' own definition of "best" in all its elasticity.<br>
PS: I did not know that Matthews went in for po-mo relativism. :(</p>