“I have no idea what ‘integrated practice in writing’ is.”
If you are serious – I’d think you would have at least some idea of what it could at least possibly mean – I meant “integrated across the curriculum,” as opposed to being concentrated formally in any one department. This is USNWR’s description for the category:
These colleges typically make writing a priority at all levels of instruction and across the curriculum. Students are encouraged to produce and refine various forms of writing for a range of audiences in different disciplines.
@merc81: I wasn’t being snarky; I had no idea there was a formal name for “take a bunch of writing courses in different departments.” That said, I’ve only ever done one kind of writing in law practice: legal writing; I question how valuable it would be to know how to write a social science paper or lab report, since I learned both and have used neither.
I am not convinced that good writing equates with good law school grades. Most law students write well but issue spotting is far more important than whether you write well or have majored in a subject that requires a lot of writing. The better approach is to take classes that encourage argumentative essays, such as philosophy and poly sci. But if you study computer science and are smart enough to spot legal issues, you’ll do just as well as those who were social science majors.
Ok, I’ll bite. I can assure you that writing an “A” lab reports teaches critical thinking skills and conciseness (is that a word?), both of which are extremely important in Law. Perhaps you were already learned in such skills, but most Lit folks are not. (Indeed, one thing that Law Schools like to boast is that they ‘teach you how to think’; well, doh, if they accept a bunch of students without critical thinking skills…)
@Demosthenes49: I appreciate your clarification. Snarkiness certaintly is out there, so I actually wasn’t sure.
Regarding the teaching of writing itself, I find the emphasis of it across the disciplines, and therefore within the disciplines a student is most naturally comfortable with, to be an excellent curricular objective. Though you certainly have an informed perspective.
@SeattleTW: In fairness, merc81 suggested writing to help with law practice, not school.
@bluebayou: Critical thinking is definitely valuable. Would “integrated practice in writing” develop that better than any other major, essentially every one of which claims to teach critical thinking? I suppose my point is that there isn’t any major you can take in college that will better prepare you for law school or law practice. There are definitely a few courses one could take though.
Honestly, this kind of on-line forum totally neglects the true benefits of attending a top college. Yes, going to a top college won’t help you get into an elite law school or a medical school by itself. But that’s not what’s really important, or what really matters.
What attending a top college can do is that a top college opens doors into the recruiting channel for top-tier corporate jobs that many college grads covet, such as mgmt. consulting, I-banking, Strategy at F500, all sorts of ‘analyst’ jobs at big corporations, etc. Lots of times, most of these competitive jobs won’t even hand out a first round interview to any student coming from a college ranked outside top 15 or so unless that dude has stellar GPA and connections.
What is some random humanities grad from a directional State U going to do if s/he doesn’t make the cut at a top 10 law school? Attend some crap law school just to be unemployed 3 years later? Or, with that useless college degree, get some sort of dead-end retail sales gig?
I attended an Ivy undergrad and a top 6 law school. From my college peers, the most successful kids I know are the ones who sported 3.7+ GPA and had a finance internship under their belt before graduating. They got jobs in I-banking or hedge funds as banking analysts or traders, out of college. Now, they make more money than me without having wasted 3 years of their lives in grad school learning some theoretical, non-practical non-sense, and without six figure grad school loans. A lot of my friends from my college outside of that elite finance circle are also making decent livings doing other things. I would honestly argue that attending a top, elite college has more profound impact on developing and nurturing someone’s foundation for social, career, maturity, and intellect -related prospects.
My advice to any high school student? Don’t think about doing grad school now. Bust your butt to get into a top college. And then bust your butt there to get a good job. Do grad school only if you fail to score a legit gig out of college.
What I find fascinating about this forum is the lack to Critical Reading skills. In this case, the OP did not ask about Big Consulting or I-banks or Big Strategy. If s/he had, I would definitely say that such employers are prestige hounds so yes, for those jobs undergrad matter.
btw: Indeed, I have mentioned that many times over my thousands of posts on cc that I-bank wannabes should attend an Ivy or top undergrad b-school like Stern. But again, the OP did not ask about that. Although I contribute frequently to thread creep, I generally try to ask a direct question with a direct answer, which is on point, and not answer a question that has not been asked.
fwiw: an internet colleague, who attended a small, no-name, religious college in no-wheresville, population, with a 100% acceptance rate, is now at HLS, due in part to his 4.0.
@bluebayou Thus, you make the lucid point of what I call (I made the term up) the paradox of elite scores. My posit is as such–that because so many of the schools that may only have a single representation at say YSH law schools, every couple of years, you are probably more valued from an admission perspective, say than the 28 other applicants from Harvard undergrad with similar scores and institutional GPA.
The problem there is the fact that most high school kids, and even the majority of college students, have no clue what careers they’d like to pursue. Some say they want law school. Many law grads that attended top tier law schools and got jobs in Biglaw hate being lawyers and wish they did something else.
I would seriously question anyone that’s still young and yet to work a real office job regarding their intent to pursue a degree like law or MBA. If you just want to become a lawyer after watching a couple of TV shows like law and order, you are likely going to be screwed going with law. And, even if you have legitimate reasons for wanting to become a lawyer, if you don’t get into the right school at a right cost, you will likely end up being worse off long-term than college grads who took jobs paying 60k a year out of college and didn’t bother with any grad school.
Going to a top college opens many more doors and possibilities for young students to explore. Heck, by going to some random state school for college, the opportunity to pursue a summer internship in any serious corporate job will likely be shut, so you won’t even have an opportunity to sniff an ounce of air inside a legit company and actually get to see if other competitive corporate jobs besides becoming a Biglaw associate is preferable to your long term career interests.
Nowadays, I am tapping onto college alums and law school alums like crazy to land interviews at consulting firms. Doing big business like consulting or banking is far superior to doing Biglaw. The work is more interesting, analytical, and skills you build are more transferrable and marketable. All corporate lawyers learn to do in Biglaw is to stare at boring documents, do some legal research, and write a ton of memos. Most lawyers I know don’t even know how to do basic Excel functions, which is sad and likely why going from Biglaw to any respectable business jobs is so darn difficult.
I would agree with a lot of what NYULawyer says. I’m one of the rare few people who went straight from college to law school to a law firm and have been happy ever since, being a lawyer, even though I had no idea before law school about the law. Most of my law school friends who went straight through ended up doing something else as a career.
Unlike NYULawyer, though, I do Excel everything, as a corporate lawyer; cap tables are routine. I would find I-banking to be unbearable; at a junior level, it seems to involve staying up very late doing pitches and spreadsheets, and at a senior level, it seems to involve wining and dining people–it’s basically a glorified sales job.
