High school transcript bias

Parent Cafe
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<p>AP scores matter- it’s AP grades that can be bogus. (I mention this because several threads lately have noted adcoms don’t care about AP scores or look at them. Of course they do.) </p>

<p>High ACT and low gpa is a warning the kid is either bright or tests well, but doesn’t put forth much effort, week-to week. Not good. Likewise, gpa is a measure of how the kid strives- no matter what we say about real kids getting real grades, the more competitive the college is (in terms of the classroom bar,) the more they need to know this kid puts his best out, won’t settle.</p>

<p>OP, your friend is yanking your chain and, like many friends and neighbors- does not know enough to make broad statements.</p>

<p>The most exclusive, expensive schools, boarding or not, do have some inflation characterstics- 15 vals? Every kid with super ECs? Ya, right. That’s coaching. Adcoms know. </p>

<p>Let me add to the “how much adcoms know” topic. There are very few hs they compeletely and totally have never heard of or can’t find some reference to. You have got to ensure there is a school profile or some document that describes offerings, standards, grading, policies and assesses the school’s success. At some very small schools, this is an ineffective 3/4 page document- see what you can learn about yours.</p>

<p>About ECs- it’s the pattern, challenge, impact and commitment (more than occasional, best if done over time) that count. They don’t check- or rather, rarely do, though CA has a random check policy. It’s the kid’s choices that matter and how he led, whether he climbed out of the box or just did what was avialble, in front of him. Cookie-cutter, uninspired? Or finds a way to make a difference. What the kid lists is often a real view into how he thinks about his EC time.</p>

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<p>Actually, many colleges look at high school course rigor and grades with higher priority. Lower grades with high test scores tends to say “smart slacker” which is often seen as undesirable.</p>

<p>Of course, super-selective schools want both high school record and test scores to be near-maximum, although that is not sufficient to gain admission.</p>

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<p>lookingforward-high test scores and lower GPA doesn’t always mean that the kid is lazy–it could be that their high school is actually challenging kids. We rarely have more than one or two 4.0’s (on a 4.0 scale) in our high school. We have plenty of kids with 3.6’s get into top 25 schools and the 3.2’s get into very, very good schools as well. The school report that goes with the application explains that. Ad coms are more suspect of schools that have 45 “valedictorians” quite honestly–unless they have the test scores to back that up.</p>

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A quick check of the common data set will tell you what the school places emphasis on in admissions. UVa for example places more emphasis on the transcript (gpa in context of what was offered, and rigor of what was taken) then scores, although they use a holistic review where EC’s and essays are important as well. VT on the other hand is much more of a numbers game. Stats only please (scores, gpa, & rigor). Two years ago when my son applied essays were optional and LOR’s were not encouraged. EC’s are given very little weight.</p>

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<p>Our high school sends eforms–is that worth more :D</p>

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<p>Unless that 78% is on the exact same test that can only be graded objectively - that tells me nothing about whether there is actually grade inflation or not. </p>

<p>Every admissions officer I’ve ever heard asked about it says that it’s more important that you challenge yourself by taking advanced courses. (In many schools that means the AP courses.) They claim they don’t care about the scores, but I’ve never really believed them. And I’m pretty sure the fact that my kids got 5’s on all the APs they took must have helped them - especially the kid who had a lot of B+s. (He wasn’t lazy - he refused to use his 504 plan.)</p>

<p>SATs are both more important than colleges want to admit and less important than students fear. Colleges aren’t impressed by a 2400 on the first try, but they do want to see scores that indicate you have the chops to do the work. A Harvard admissions officer said that score is about 650 per section. Of course most students have higher scores than that, but that’s more because that crossing the bar on the other parts of their application is highly correlated with high scores. The good enough numbers from each high school can be quite different. From our high school students nearly every student who gets into Harvard has been in the top 2 or 3%, has SAT scores above 2200, has taken 8 or 9 AP level classes and has some top level EC. (State level awards in Science Olympiad, Intel/Siemens semi-finalists, interesting working experiences, musical achievement at a high level etc.) </p>

<p>There are private schools in our area which are considered better schools, but the fact is that the kids in the top level courses at our high school have gotten for the most part a very good education and don’t have any difficulty with a college curriculum. There are also private schools that are very nice in their way, but they never send kids to top schools.</p>

<p>And as for JHS’s story, it’s great that colleges still take the risk on an occasional diamond in the rough student. It’s too bad it can’t happen more often.</p>

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<p>I didn’t mean to insinuate that an AP score didn’t matter. They do when taken in conjunction with an AP course. My point was if AP courses weren’t offered at the OPs son’s high school I wouldn’t have him spend his effort self studying for APs unless college credit was his goal. If showing subject mastery on applications is the goal I feel the SAT2’s are better suited to that.</p>

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<p>More important that you challenge yourself, open yourself to the possibility of getting a B in a complex subject. Rather than drive for an A by taking an assuredly easier class.</p>

<p>I think that’s all it is, all that means. Ie, given that choice. Not that rigor without performance ends up fine.</p>

<p>Harvard said what group scores 650 per? All applicants, admitteds or kids who matriculate? If I read you right, averages could be that low because the other test is near perfect? </p>

<p>OP, among other things, if the hs doesn’t offer APs, they won’t be the only one. The same scrutiny is applied, based on what was available.</p>

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<p>“I suspect – I don’t know, but it makes sense to me – that there is a mild bias against the unknown school, especially if the student comes from an area where there are plenty of known schools.”
That is exactly my point. Yes, the quality of the paper is not important but three paragraphs of general info that do little but list statistics do not help much.
I am not dismissing the importance of SAT but I am more inclined to believe that SAT II have a better way of showing the applicant’s knowledge vs. SAT I that you could be coached in so many ways. Of course, the same thing can be said about SAT II. Just a quick look at the SAT forum shows that kids have and will find ways to circumvent the acquiring knowledge part but instead drill for what they know the College Board needs to see.
And as a side note, I do know an instance when the mention of a top private highly expensive school in my area envoked a litany of selective colleges where the graduates are expected to enroll. Not to put those kids down (I am sure that has nothing to do with their abilities) but they were worked with from the minute they enter in 9 grade all throughout their high school career.</p>

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<p>mathmom, I don’t think my story was about a college taking a chance on a “diamond in the rough”. I think it was about a kid so brilliant that his obvious deficiencies were irrelevant. He wasn’t a diamond in the rough, he was a local celebrity with enough endorsers that he could have run for mayor. But someone who shone a little less brightly, but still had a 4.0 GPA from the same school, would likely be passed over by selective colleges – and rightly so – without a lot of external confirmation that his 4.0 meant he could handle a challenging college curriculum.</p>

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<p>Well, yes. That’s a (sometimes the) raison d’etre for many top private highly expensive high schools. In our area, it’s for any high school–public or private–that is looking for new 9th graders. At the end of the school year, our local paper is filled with ads showing the graduating class of such-and-such high school, along with a list of the colleges that admitted the school’s graduates. I’d expect to see the same sort of thing in other urban areas.</p>

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<p>which is why I didn’t use the example of the 2.7 gpa and 32 ACT. I think as long as you’re over 3’ish on gpa? the other factors gain more weight.</p>

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<p>Every high school sends out a Profile of the school to colleges, along with the transcript. Most list courses offered (including honors and AP) and their grading scale.</p>

<p>I know of a very small private school whose Profile includes the grade distributions of every 9th, 10th and 11th grade course. This school doesn’t rank, but with the grade distribution chart the colleges can figure it out. Their Profile also includes their grading scale (A = 93+, etc), their average SAT scores, and how they weight GPAs.</p>

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<p>Harvard said that students who got 650s are capable of being good students there. Most students they accept have higher scores. </p>

<p>Some schools don’t offer AP courses because they think their courses are better than AP courses.</p>

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<p>^ Got it. Agree. Thanks.
The EC’s should be more than unilateral, though. </p>

<p>OP, without a GC, how do your students get shepherded through the process? Or, how does the school manage its side?</p>

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<p>quote:
“I don’t think GPA is given as much weight as ACT/SAT scores, essays, EC’s and recommendations, no matter where they come from (public or private).”</p>

<p>I have my doubts about that. Both my sons had high stats (high 700s math, high 600s CR) but HS GPA’s of barely 3.0 and no AP courses and with no ECs and both are currently pursuing their BS degrees in Physics and Geology at a California State University, CSU Sacramento, the only school that accepted them and that was probably because we are in Sac States’s service area. </p>

<p>They were lazy slackers in HS and are actually doing much better at Sac State where they seem more motivated.</p>

<p>Holistic Admissions is the name of game now and if all you bring to the table is high SAT scores prepare to get your college degree from a Tier Three school.</p>

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<p>^ lookingforward nailed my concern, OP. The thing a college admission rep is looking for is how well you performed (transcript of courses taken and grades attained) in context (school-provided profile outlining what courses were offered, and the level of rigor assigned to each course by your school, plus grading policy and grade distribution sufficient to allow a third party to compare applicant’s performance to peers). By focusing on how you did compared to others in your school, issues like grade inflation, low- or high-performing school as compared to other schools, etc. take a back seat. But…it’s essential someone at your school provides this context so that your son’s transcript isn’t evaluated in a vacuum. Without a GC, who does that? Who provides the GC recommendation (Secondary School Report) schools using Common App will antipate receiving? You don’t need to answer here, but you need to find out, if you don’t know!</p>

<p>See exemplar profile: <a href=“http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/counseling/profile/sample[/url]”>http://professionals.collegeboard.com/guidance/counseling/profile/sample&lt;/a&gt; (also, go to the college counseling section of your local high school websites and take a look at their profiles)</p>

<p>See Secondar School Report: <a href=“https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Docs/DownloadForms/2013/2013SchoolReport_download.pdf[/url]”>https://www.commonapp.org/CommonApp/Docs/DownloadForms/2013/2013SchoolReport_download.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Just to throw in a different thought…</p>

<p>One might assume that if an adcom gave preferential treatment to a type of school, it would be toward a private school, NOT a public school for several reasons:

  1. Private schools are usually viewed as providing more individualized instruction, and
  2. Not to be cynical, but even though many colleges claim they are need-blind, when an applicant comes from a private school, the adcom might assume that the family can at least afford some tuition.</p>
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<p>One might also assume the opposite: a top student at the public school who achieved as much or nearly as much as his private counterpart without the hand-holding and strategic-advising advantages that one gets in a private school. That student is more self-directed and will generally out-shine the other in a top college when later also given access to this type of assistance.</p>

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<p>Lorem - I get what you’re saying. However, in our area, it is rare for unhooked, non-URM public school kids to get into the most competitive schools, such as MIT, the ivies, etc. Whereas private school kids get in with relative frequency.</p>