<p>Hi all. New to the forum, but I've spent the better part of the day reading through posts here. Lots of good information for someone just starting to research the college process. Thanks!</p>
<p>I have lots of questions to ask. But my first one is... do colleges grade or score high schools? My daughter is a freshman in high school, and I want to start early to be sure she prepares during her high school years so that she has the best chance possible three years from now. She currently attends a small private school. But I am considering moving her to the large public high school for next year. Her current school only offers 2 AP classes. The large public offers 12 or 13. From what I have read, the number of AP courses taken (and the grades, of course) are of importance to college admissions offices. The large public does not have a good academic reputation. However, I've been told that their Honors and AP level classes are just as strong as the small private school classes (and maybe stronger). On the other hand, the small private has a good college process. They've already visited their first college campus (U.VA) and have plans to visit more. How important is that vs having the extra AP classes available?</p>
<p>So assuming the same GPA and SAT scores three years from now, how are colleges going to view the high school she attends? Do they actually have some sort of rating system for high schools? Or is it completely informal, and just their 'feel' for the particular high school?</p>
<p>What you may want to find out is what kind of AP scores the students in the AP courses get. For example, if the A students in AP courses get 5 scores on the AP test, that is a much better sign than if the A students in AP courses get 1 scores on the AP test.</p>
<p>The number of AP courses may not be as important as whether the student will run out of rigorous course choices in the high school. If the schools are such that the AP courses are the most rigorous courses that they offer (i.e. no offerings of similarly or more rigorous courses, or availability of taking college courses at a nearby college without too much commuting hassle), then it also matters which AP courses are offered (they are not all equally rigorous or valuable).</p>
<p>To add to what UCB already stated, your D will be judged compared to her options in school. If she is unable to take more than 2 APs she won’t be docked for that.</p>
<p>Many high schools produce something called a profile. It is sent together with the transcript to every college to which any student in the class applies. The profile tells the colleges something about the high school. There is no standard format, but typical information includes the percentage of students who go on to higher education, sometimes broken down to 2 year/4 year colleges; the fact that the high school offers an IB diploma if it does; the AP courses offered by the school; the percentage of students who take AP tests; the median SAT/ACT of last year’s class; the grading scale; the median gpa, especially if the high school doesn’t inflate grades, etc. This helps the college put the transcript in a context.</p>
<p>Additionally, at least in the past, the College Board sold reports about schools to colleges. So, if a college isn’t familiar with a high school, it can buy the report and find out things like the # of 3,4, and 5 scores earned on each AP exam, the median SAT and other info. </p>
<p>Then many colleges send representatives to high schools to interview students. Often these reps find out info about the school as well while talking with the guidance counselor. Many admissions departments have a “regional rep,” who is responsible for becoming familiar with the high schools in a given geographic area. It’s usually the regional rep who does the first read of the application.</p>
<p>Good point. But how would I get that information? Will the public school have that info. available? If so, should I not get the test scores for all students who took the tests, not just those that made A’s in the course?</p>
<p>Yes, AP test scores for all students would be better than nothing. It can tell you if the AP courses meet AP standards, or if they are just empty labels.</p>
<p>As Jonri mentioned above, the school profile should include that info. It may not, especially if the stats are not favorable. Our school profile includes a little chart showing the # of students who scored at each level for each AP exam, along with all of the other info Jonri outlined. Our profile also includes the # of NMSF & Commended and a distribution of grades on a bar chart. </p>
<p>If you cannot find the school profile by looking at the school’s home page or guidance page, either contact the school and request it or google “Small Town HS profile”. They are not always easy to find, and the formats are all over the map, so it can take a little work to compare info.</p>
<p>So I’m assuming by the responses so far, that there is no standard format used by colleges to grade high schools. Rather they look at typical information such as standardized test scores (such as AP tests, SAT or ACT tests) to be able to compare the level of education and success for each student. </p>
<p>I am surprised by Erin’s Dad’s response. It would seem logical that a high school that offers 12 AP classes would be viewed by a college as a better education than a school only offering two AP classes. If the high school doesn’t offer the AP classes, then my daughter would not have the opportunity to take them. If she is applying and competing against someone who went to the larger school and took 8-10 AP classes and was able to take the exams and score well, would not my daughter be at a significant disadvantage? I understand the AP exam scores are crucial. But if my daughter never has the chance to even take the exam, it seems she would be at a huge disadvantage. Or do the colleges really only consider the AP classes and exams she had available to take? I know if I were the one deciding, I would lean towards the student who had taken the larger number of AP classes. Even if they had slightly lower scores on more AP exams.</p>
<p>I’ll call the larger public school and see if they have a profile available. I doubt it, because their academic reputation is not very good. I’ll likely have to ask for the information individually. But thanks, jonri, for listing some specific things to look for.</p>
<p>Many private schools and some public schools offer classes that are just as rigorous or more rigorous than AP classes without the AP label. An AP class at one school may be equivalent in rigor to an honors class or a regular class at another school. You really have to dig deeper and look beyond the labels of individual courses.</p>
<p>@prefect’s post is spot on. DS attends a rigorous high school known for its academics. It offers APs but doesn’t emphasize them because its overall curriculum is deep and well known. He’ll only be taking one AP but not because that course is the most rigorous; it definitely isn’t.</p>
<p>But don’t they have to take the AP class in order to take the AP exam? And if they take the AP exams, they potentially can get college credit, correct? Plus it seems you’d have to convince the college admissions officer that your ‘regular’ class is as rigorous as other’s AP class. The label itself could sway an admissions officer (or rather, the group deciding), could it not? That’s part of what I’m not understanding. How are they comparing one high school to another, and how would they know that High School A’s regular course is as rigorous as High School B’s AP class?</p>
<p>You can take AP exams without taking the course but, at some schools, kids don’t bother with the AP curriculum or tests because they are not the best option available. Also, many of the most selective colleges aren’t accepting APs for placement anymore because many of these courses don’t actually prepare students for the college’s course equivalents even if they got 5s. Dartmouth is a recent example of a school that no longer accepts APs.</p>
<p>There are many schools out there with reputations well-known to colleges such that students don’t need APs to prove their readiness for the work. A college would wonder why a student at DS school would short-change himself on APs when the “regular” curriculum is so much richer.</p>
<p>This is mostly the realm of academically elite high schools. More typical public and private high schools tend to have AP (or IB) courses as their most rigorous courses.</p>
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<p>No. Some students self study for the AP tests, particularly for easier (but lower value) ones like human geography and psychology. You can get an idea of which AP tests are the easier “AP lite” ones by going to the AP test forum and looking up the “easiest AP tests to self study” threads.</p>
<p>Wow! So much information. Thank you ncparent for starting this thread and for all your responses. As a mom to a freshman, I am learning so much from all these posts.</p>
<p>Even within the realm of “regular” high schools and “non elite” private schools, an AP class is not necessarily rigorous, even if it is the most advanced class available. As another poster pointed out, make an effort to find out what the AP scores are and if students actually take the exam. Some schools don’t require students to take the exam. For example, if 100 students took AP biology, 25 took the test, and there were 10 ones, 10 twos, 3 threes, and 2 fours, I would be worried about the quality of the course. Some school districts make this information public and many private schools also have this information in their profile. </p>
<p>What type of colleges do students at the current private school attend? What are AP, SAT, ACT scores, what are the facilities like, what’s the general atmosphere like? These are all things that might be considered in addition to number of AP classes available.</p>
<p>Thanks to all for the responses. Yes, very good information here.</p>
<p>I’ll see what I can find out about the AP exam scores at the two schools. The small private school is fairly new (five years old, I think) and the graduating classes have been very small so far. Only 6-12 students. Most students have gone to in-state colleges. As far as I have heard, no Ivy League or really high end colleges so far. I’ll have to get information on scores. Facilities are new and very nice, and the atmosphere is very positive. They have a focus on world studies and each grade travels to various countries. Five countries are on the 2013/2014 travel agenda. She would certainly not get that exposure at the large public school. More clubs, AP courses, and 4A athletics are the draws at the the public school.</p>
<p>Given the private school’s focus, how does it relate to the student’s interests? If she is interested in studying international topics, the travel agenda may help her determine her interests.</p>
<p>She’s only in 9th grade. How many of us knew what they wanted to do in 9th grade? I know I did not. She has mentioned three areas of interest. Law, psychology, and marine biology. She likes to debate (and unfortunately for me, is good at it!) and she likes to help others with their relationship problems. Not sure where the marine biology thing comes from. A lot of kids at that age seem to mention it though. But I really think she has no good idea. At this point, I don’t see the global aspect of the smaller school as anything really beneficial. </p>
<p>I’ve gotten her to take two aptitude tests, but most areas came back neutral. The only thing that stood out is that she is an extrovert.</p>
<p>Marine biology interest may be due to large charismatic animals in the ocean, like whales, dolphins, and sea turtles (as opposed to living things like algae (seaweed), sea squirts, lampreys, etc.).</p>
<p><< Or do the colleges really only consider the AP classes and exams she had available to take? >>
Yes, absolutely. Colleges expect students to take the most rigorous curriculum available to them. Period. She will never be penalized for what her school does not offer.</p>
<p>Some students who are in under resourced schools or schools that just don’t offer AP classes do self study for AP exams, mostly in languages and humanities. (The AP Science classes always have a lab component, and students don’t as often self study for those.) Some motivated students take college classes or find teachers or professors to mentor them in research or independent studies. And each year students are admitted to the most selective colleges with one or two or no AP classes on their transcripts. </p>
<p>If I were in your shoes, I would look at the situation holistically, and ask, where will my daughter get the better education (not measured by # of AP classes offered) and where will she be happiest? evaluating the better education might include aspects like small classes, creative curriculum, student centered learning, enthusiastic engaged teachers with autonomy in their classrooms, other engaged students, a responsive administration, etc. Where she would be happiest would include the social climate of the school as well as arts, music, sports, clubs and other opportunities and enough other like minded students. The extrovert quality might work in either environment - in the larger school she would have a large social network, in the small school she would be a natural leader. My goal has always been for my kids to love their school and be happy to be there each day.<br>
When colleges are evaluating your daughter’s application in 3+ years from now, many aspects of her self as a student and a human being will interest them. I would try to provide a learning environment that you believe in and that suits her and promotes her intellectual and social growth. This is what we have done for our children and it has meant making some controversial choices, and sacrifices (which we are happy to do for education) and it has really really paid off in college admissions, although that was not the intention. In many ways I am glad that I wasn’t thinking about college admissions when we made educational choices or I might have made more conventional or instrumental decisions. We accidentally provided exactly what selective colleges are looking for. Try to think about what you really really want for her, forgetting about colleges for a minute. That will probably be the right thing.</p>