^^^ I agree with GMTplus7 once in a blue moon, and it’s one of those times!
@lookingforward The following is from an old thread (2010) that discusses the gaming of ethnicity/race in order to seek an advantage. The reason it’s particularly significant is that the thread had an MIT adcom answer questions.
At the time, I was grappling with what to check for my own D–and wrote the following thread:
"D is 100% white. Not a question of that.
Ethnic background (meaning where grandparents and great-grandparents were born) is 1/4 Argentinian, 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Czech and 1/4 Austrian. Family members also live in South Africa and Mexico.
Most defining and unifying background is that D is Jewish. Older family members speak Spanish and Yiddish if not English. However, religion is separate from ethnicity and certainly people can be defined as Polish Jews and Polish Catholics, but in either case can check Polish for ethnic background. So I am going to take religion out of the ethnic background equation. Obviously I would say I am American without hesitiation, with religion not a consideration.
If you ask D about her family background, the first thing she will mention is her grandmother who speaks Spanish and was born in Argentina (since it is special to her and she was her primary babysitter growing up) and her great-great Uncle (?) who was a famous Austrian writer and wrote Song of Bernadette.
I did make a phone call to determine her ethnic background as defined by the National Hispanic Recognition program for the PSAT. I did not do it based on whether D feels part Hispanic (she does) but since it is only a part of who she is, I felt unsure about her checking just this label and no others.
After several conversation with the program they assured me that her 1/4 Argentinian background meets their criteria for Hispanic and she should “check the box.” They said that Hispanic can be of any race and can be 3/4 non-Hispanic.
So is this “gaming” the system because now D may be eligible for scholarships as a “minority” student?"
This is the answer from the adcom at MIT:
"08-17-2010 at 8:36 am
uskoolfish -
D is a textbook example of why we would separate race and ethnicity. She is ethnically Hispanic and racially white, although she could also check Argentinian (for race, you can select two)."
So here’s the answer directly from an adcom. But based on this thread, the MIT adcom would take real issue with the OP and would definitely not consider her Hispanic.
I think what @psych_ is getting at is that in this “global” world where immigration occurs all over the world, who is really Hispanic? If your ancestors are German or Austrian, many of them ended up in Argentina and Uruguay not that long ago. Two generations later, a kid says “my grandmother was born in Argentina.” Does that make her Hispanic? Bc Grandma was born of 2 Germans in Argentina?
Are the descendants of the Spanish conquistadors really the same as the indigenous peoples of Mexico? Or are they simply European immigrants to Mexico? And if they are, then how is that not lost when they move to another culture, such as Canada?
Will all the immigrants to Italy from Northern Africa become European after 2 Generations? Or a Chinese immigrant to any non-Asian country…2 generations later, still Asian? Or the Chinese baby adopted by Mexican immigrants to the U.S.?
Some of those questions seem obvious (the ones where “race” is there identifier), others are harder to justify (where “ethnicity” is the identifier). I think it produces interesting questions that only the person identifying that way can really answer authentically for themselves, looking into their own heart and conscience.
I suspect that much of the box checking is, in fact, for census only. If an applicant is a true URM, this comes out in the holistic process (ie, how has it affected the applicant, and how can it enhance our class).
In the present classification of hispanic, Joseph Mengele’s offspring would be considered URMs worthy of admissions preference.
According to College Board and any admissions people I questioned, ethnicity is determined by where someone is born and where their ancestors were born. So in order to show that D was 1/4 Hispanic, I’d offer documentation showing that her grandmother was born in Argentina. It does not matter than her father was born in Poland a generation back.
@GMTplus7 You’re right! Ironic because many Jews went to Argentina to escape persecution in Europe.
*How 'bout colleges stop shoe-horning kids into arbitrary racial buckets * I know we’ve said many times, on many threads, the colleges didn’t invent the question. It’s from the govt, complain to them.
For me, it’s striking how some people like to be outraged by this question of identity. Even though people talk of being colorblind and detesting categorization, instead of seeing it from the college’s perspective, bringing together folks of all sorts, with varied influences in their upbringing, it so often seems to be a threat. And then that personal threat is backed up by anecdote. Um. And retreats to someone like Warren, who’s long past applying to college. (Same as bringing up Bush jr to complain abut legacy.) Or what Harvard did 70+ years ago.
Most folks don’t know what the colleges do with the info. I agree with @HRSMom that it comes out in holistic- or not.
OP had what I think is an honest question, but worded it in a way that, at least a little, set people roiling. When I suggested she needs more than friendships and travel to back up this supposed “identity,” he didn’t mention anything. I suspect she does id with her Spanish friends. That doesn’t make her Spanish or of Spanish descent. She has a chance to discuss her affinity for Hispanic culture, her friendships, her awareness, etc. I just don’t think that makes her Hispanic.
Are prominent Mexican intellectuals whose parents immigrated from Poland Hispanic? They certainly are Mexican!
@zobroward , my point was that I’m sometimes not sure if these questions are actually asking about race, ethnicity, or, well, skin color. For example, the child I mentioned could clearly and accurately identify as Hispanic, Native American, White, and/or multiracial on an application, because he is (and has been raised in and identifies with those cultures), but would adcoms accuse him of lying because he looks White?
No, adcoms won’t go seek him out and check his skin tone, as if there’s some prototype.
So why is Spain and not Portugal considered Hispanic? They are both on the Iberian peninsula, and Brasil is included. Weird.
^
Where?
I’ve always seen Brazil specifically excluded under “Hispanic” but included under “Latino,” which makes sense.
@looking_forward , I think that’s often the question, though, that drives these threads–if the student “looks the part,” there’s no question. If they don’t, there’s often a firestorm. from both sides, about what’s “fair” and “honest.” And there is some advantage to “passing as White” in terns of avoiding/minimizing racial profiling, etc ., so it’s not an unfair question, but it’s also, as many posts on CC have demonstrated, much more complicated than that as well. I don’t have the answer by any means–I just thinks that that’s often the impetus that drives so many of these threads about “gaming the system” in terms of racial or ethnic identity on applications.
I think the point is that people need to be honest. We can’t control what the single most important factor is in any one person’s application when it comes down to it. But we can be honest when asked one question at a time.
So I would advise my children to give as much accurate information as they are asked. White? Yes. Hispanic? Yes. Other? Yes.
Other info may play a part in a colleges decison-making process also. Did parents attend college? Yes. Is there financial need? No.
Each school is going to use this info to make whatever decision works best for them. It is out of our control. If an answer helps make the admissions process go more in our favor, great. Some factors swing things in our direction and others do not. It helps that my D has musical talent and that that she is great at interviews. It doesn’t help that her math SAT score was not up to par with her grades. Will she get away with lower math scores because she is 1/4 Hispanic? Who knows? I’ll never know if that was a deciding factor, and to be honest I don’t even care if it is. Because she answered honestly.
Congratulations. You’ve finally discovered how stupidly arbitrary this category is: where Joseph Mengele’s Aryan grandchildren are “hispanic”, but Filipinos who are decendants of Spanish colonists are not.
“So why is Spain and not Portugal considered Hispanic? They are both on the Iberian peninsula, and Brasil is included. Weird.”
Brazilians are not considered Hispanic. One of my closest friends is Brazilian, and she is very up on the entire game of getting her daughter into college, and she said she can’t check that box.
I’m in the boat of defining URM’s by one color-green, and also if they’re first generation college kids. That’s it. We’re all so shuffled together racially and geographically now (and that’s a good thing), it seems like the best way to reach those kids who really need help.
even the question- are you “first generation college kids” definition can be a grey area for some.
Some interpret it as meaning the first generation in a family to attend college. Others, who may have had a grandparent attend college(but not parents) will answer yes- to hide gramps’ college, and interpreting the question as if it said “Did your parents go to college?”
@MotherOfDragons Using first generation college as a barometer becomes tricky, too.
Some recent immigrants move to the best school districts and supplement their children’s education with additional tutoring and lessons. They use all of their money to better their children’s educational outcomes. Those kids have lots of advantages in the college process because their families have made it their priority and have provided the best resources for them. Their only disadvantage is that English is probably not spoken at home.
But other first generation college students may have gone to the worst schools because they grew up in poverty. They may have had to overcome substantial barriers to succeed–including no parental/ community support and the need to work to help provide for their families and have money for college. They, too, may not speak English at home.
So the pool of students who are first generation attending college can be very different. And even if the first group may on paper be poor, they were not lacking in terms of their educational experience.
@uskoolfish , I would think the first group is exactly who you’d want to encourage with financial incentives, because they’re the most likely to be successful at college. Good karmic ROI, if you ask me.
I never understood why some groups, despite being lower income, get demonized for pushing their kids academically.
I haven’t read any responses, but the right thing might be to clarify you are racially mixed, White and Asian, but consider yourself culturally Hispanic because a parent lived in Spain for 8 years etc. There will be no Affirmative Action advantage to it in admissions, which is usually reserved for those Mexicans and PRs with indigenous American or African ancestry.
.
A lot of us like to think college is charity - giving disadvantaged kids some advantage, when in fact it is an educational institution. Many top tier schools like to have diverse students to build their community. They do what they have to do to attract students they want, and it may mean to have students from different culture and SES.