History Major at Penn?

[Cue7]

@“45 Percenter” - I’m a little confused by your post. If anything, I’ve been complimentary of Penn’s history dep’t and the experience it offers - I don’t mean to imply that the experience is any less rich or varied or vigorous than what’s found at other top schools- it’s just different. Further, within the narrow confines of the dep’t itself and classes offered, I think the academic experience is similar at virtually ALL of the top 20 or so schools - from Harvard and Yale to UPenn and Emory and Wash U. At any of these schools, you’ll get a fairly bright subset of students passionate about history, who all tend to take similar upper-level courses together.

What happens in the classroom in the upper-level courses, I’ve found, is actually just a small piece of what it means to major in a humanities field, and you are underselling the varied academic experience - related to their chosen field of study - most Penn history majors have by virtue of being part of a variegated undergrad. If the experience you and your child had as humanities majors at Penn mirrored the experience at Harvard or Duke, well, I’m sorry to say, you/yours didn’t maximize the experiential offerings present within this major at UPenn - it’s supposed to feel different - by structure and by design.

Yes, the narrow subset of upper-level classes taken for the major will be similar to what’s found at Harvard or Duke or Wash U, but at Penn the general experience in the major (at least from what I saw) is quite different. First, the faculty tend to be a more interdisciplinary, with joint appointments elsewhere (as I noted above). Second, in symposia that undergrads attend, and even in some of the higher-level classes, it’s more likely that those from vastly different fields (business, engineering, nursing, etc.) will attend and will engage in dialogue about the academic subject. Third, having pre-professional students in nursing or wharton is quite different than having a potential econ major/future i-banker in your intro US history class. They’re being trained differently, there’s more of an emphasis (especially in nursing) on the practical/clinical, and there’s more defined interest from a younger age. You’re mixing liberal arts students with literally pre-professional students from freshman year, and that’s a hallmark distinguishing factor for UPenn. Fourth, there’s broad departmental emphasis on interdisciplinary study - so history professors actively look to collaborate with those in other fields, and students will be exposed to that.

With the above in mind, why would Harvard, Duke, etc. be good comparators? The ethos’ of the schools are different and, even more than that, the literal components of the undergrad system are different. Yes, in a minor set of classes the experience will be similar, but the broad experience of history majors is - and should - be nigh incomparable.

When deciding between Penn or Duke or Emory, the threshold question is different - at Penn students have to be willing to immerse themselves in a school devoted to interdisciplinary study. Yes, you could block it all out and have an experience in the history dept that is similar to what’s found at Duke or Emory, but why would you want to do that? The school makes it hard TO block this experience out, and you’re blocking out exactly what makes UPenn distinctive. Otherwise, you could go to one of another 15-20 places that are basically just as good for history.

[45_Percenter]

@Cue7 I actually think we’re in agreement at this point (which is a good thing since you and I are probably the only ones still following the discussion ). But to the extent there is still a difference in our views, it’s that while I agree that Penn offers a broader experience than its peers in terms of the classes and fellow students available to liberal arts students in the College, it ALSO offers a more traditional liberal arts curriculum and experience to those undergrads who seek it, and a substantial portion of the students in the College pursue just that. And while interdisciplinary studies are truly a hallmark of Penn, that interdisciplinary aspect can simply include the combination and intersection of 2 or 3 traditional liberal arts fields (e.g., the quite popular interdisciplinary majors of Biological Basis of Behavior; Health and Societies; Philosophy, Politics, and Economics; and International Relations), and doesn’t necessarily involve the more professional undergraduate schools.

Plus, many if not most of the liberal arts departments in the College each have their own comprehensive and diverse faculties and class offerings WITHOUT the need to rely on professors or classes from other departments. As I said, a major in most of the liberal arts departments in the College COULD rely solely upon the faculty and courses in those departments to complete the major, with a focus on any number of specialties within those majors. And many undergrads in the College do just that. But as you point out, the interdisciplinary opportunities are also there to a degree not matched at most of Penn’s peers.

So I guess what I’m saying is that both types of liberal arts study–interdisciplinary AND a more traditional and compartmentalized approach–are readily available in the College. In other words, the interdisciplinary opportunities at Penn are ADDITIVE to the more traditional liberal arts experience available at Penn, and do not supplant it. Both types of liberal arts experience and curriculum are readily available and pursued by undergrads in the College.

And to assuage your concerns about my and my child’s undergraduate experiences at Penn, I was a Wharton student who actually majored in the liberal arts field of Economics (when Wharton undergrads could still do that) and took several classes each in Political Science, Sociology, History, History and Sociology of Science, and even Music! And my daughter was, as I said, a Humanities major, who also took a couple of classes in the Nursing School and Wharton. But I appreciate your concern nevertheless.

[Cue7]

@“45 Percenter” - as always, you present your position well. And yes, I think we’re mostly in agreement.

HOWEVER - while it is possible for CAS students to have a “traditional and compartmentalized” approach, doesn’t that cut against Penn’s ethos? Yes, this is possible, but the school’s entire push - it’s entire identity, really - is to cut across fields of study - to cut across theory and practicality. You could go to UPenn, dive into the philosophy major, only interact with the Philo club, and have an experience that resembles what you’d find at Swarthmore or St. Johns College. Or, you could dive into subject matter at Wharton, avoid interaction with CAS nursing etc., and have an experience that resembles NYU Stern. But isn’t that the wrong approach?

But isn’t pursuing the “traditional and compartmentalized” approach in direct contravention to the spirit of the Penn experience? Aren’t you then missing out on the Penn experience, and trying to make it an experience that is more readily found elsewhere (by structure and design)?

It may be possible - but it still leads to extremely poor comparisons, and seems suboptimal. Indeed, it seems to endorse going to a school while being in opposition to the dominant pedagogical approach of the school. There’s dissonance in that, no?

[45_Percenter]

@Cue7 Again, I think your position on this is a bit hyperbolic. Yes, interdisciplinary opportunities abound at Penn, to a degree not found anywhere else. But it is not REQUIRED–by rule, ethos, peer pressure, or otherwise–that the 6400 or so undergrads in the College all pursue an interdisciplinary education, and MANY do not. Interdisciplinary education at Penn is an available opportunity, not a REQUIREMENT. And even if an undergrad in the College takes advantage of an interdisciplinary opportunity or two–a course or two in the Law School, Wharton, or Nursing, for example–it doesn’t mean that interdisciplinary study dominates their curriculum or time at Penn, especially given that undergrads in the College take anywhere from 32 to 36 or more courses to complete their degrees.

And again, trust me on this, many if not most undergrads in the College do not engage in interdisciplinary study beyond maybe a class or two outside of the College, if even that much. Even the highly popular interdisciplinary majors in the College–BBB, PP&E, IR, etc.–are mostly, if not completely, centered in traditional liberal arts departments. So why would an undergrad who wants a traditional liberal arts education want to attend Penn? Because its traditional liberal arts programs and departments are among the best in the country, comparable to those at its peers. As I’ve indicated before, several of the departments in the College are regularly ranked among the top 10 in the country, and several more are ranked among the top 20. And the liberal arts departments in the College are well-equipped to support a strong traditional liberal arts education and major. For example:

1. Penn's Anthropology Department currently lists 16 full-time professors on its standing faculty; offers an undergraduate major that requires 14 classes, up to 3 of which can be non-Antrho classes, meaning that 11-14 classes will be ONLY in the Antrho Dept.; and offers 5 specialized tracks within the major, including General Anthropology, Archaeological Anthropology, Biological Anthropology, Cultural and Linguistic Anthropology, or Medical Anthropology and Global Health.
2. Penn's English Department currently lists 38 full-time professors on its standing faculty; offers an undergraduate major that requires 13 classes, most or all of which are in the English Department; and offers NINETEEN (19) possible concentrations within the major in addition to the standard major, including Africana Literature and Cultures, Celtic Literature and Cultures, Creative Writing, Early Literature to 1660, Law and Literature, Literary Theory and Cultural Studies, Medieval/Renaissance, The Novel, and Poetry and Poetics.
3. Penn's History Department currently lists 34 full-time professors on its standing faculty; offers an undergraduate major that requires 12 classes, at least 8 or which must be in the History Department, meaning that 8-12 classes will be ONLY in the History Department; and offers up to 8 possible concentrations in addition to the standard major, including American History, European History, World History, Diplomatic History, Economic History, Gender History, Intellectual History, and Jewish History.
4. Penn's Political Science Department currently lists 38 full-time professors on its standing faculty; offers an undergraduate major that requires 12 classes, at least 9 of which must be in the Political Science Department, meaning that 9-12 classes will be ONLY in the Political Science Department; and offers up to 5 possible concentrations in addition to the standard major, including American Politics, Comparative Politics, International Relations, Political Theory, and Political Economy.
5. Even Penn's Art History Department currently lists 11 full-time professors on its standing faculty (with an additional 5 cross-listed with other departments); and offers an undergraduate major that requires 13 classes, at least 10 of which must be in the Art History Department, meaning that 10-13 classes will be ONLY in the Art History Department.

So you can see, @Cue7, using these 5 departments as examples, the bulk of the classes in a major in the College are taken in THAT DEPARTMENT, let alone in the College of Arts and Sciences. And it’s very possible that ALL of the classes for a major will be taken in that department. Needless to say, the liberal arts departments in the College are generally quite self-sufficient and free-standing, as are the majors they offer.

So why would a “traditional” liberal arts student choose Penn over, say, Brown, Duke, or even Chicago, even if he doesn’t plan to take any classes outside of the College or pursue an interdisciplinary major? Because the undergraduate liberal arts program and departments at Penn, by themselves, are generally comparable to those at Penn’s peers. And given that parity, a liberal arts student might simply prefer the campus, location, social life, exposure to non-liberal arts students, and general feel and fit of Penn to any of its peers.

Penn’s robust interdisciplinary offerings and opportunities are merely the icing on the cake should a liberal arts undergrad want to take advantage of them. But for many undergrads in the College, the cake, alone, is more than enough.

[Cue7]

@“45 Percenter” - why is the fact it’s not required an argument that the school’s identity isn’t immersed in this philosophy - a philosophy that changes the contours of the school and makes comparing with certain other schools a poor exercise?

To use an alternate example: there’s no requirement that Duke undergraduates attend Duke basketball games. It’s an available opportunity - but not a requirement. You could go to Duke for four years, never go to a game, and have an experience that resembles Swarthmore undergrad or St. John’s College. You could probably surround yourself with other people who never go to a game, and ignore this completely - so that you have a little Swarthmore bubble in the middle of Durham. You could do this because you selected Duke because you like Durham and Duke has a great Poli Sci dep’t.

To do so, however, cuts against the grain of the school’s identity - and its ethos. From their president down (and incoming Duke president Vincent Price - of UPenn fame) has stated the importance of basketball to Duke. It’s in their capital campaign slogans. It’s discussed by senior administrators and prospective students alike. It forms a key part of the experience. Ignore it, but at your own fault - you might as well have gone to Swarthmore or Reed or Emory. I’d wager a good majority of students attend Duke with this feature as a centerpiece of their consideration.

Same line of reasoning goes for Penn’s liberal arts majors. You could have an experience that resembles what you’d find at Brown or Dartmouth or Yale - it’s certainly not a requirement that you dive into the interdisciplinary waters. From UPenn President Amy Gutmann on down, however, this cuts against Penn’s ethos. It’s in the capital campaign slogans. It’s in the air. It’s in the very structure of the school - notwithstanding the 7-10 classes you might take (out of a total of 40-50) that don’t feature such interdisciplinary approaches. It’s the defining feature of the experience. You might as well have gone to Brown or Dartmouth or Yale, otherwise.

So, I’m not sure why your view here on this is myopic. Yes, it’s not required, and you can make UPenn’s liberal arts college feel like any other top 20 liberal arts college. You could do the same at most other top places, too.

But Penn chooses to have students from all its undergrad schools living together, and collaborating together. Of the, say, 12 required history classes - maybe only 6-8 of them will just have an undiluted pool of serious history folks. The rest will feature the broad panoply of Penn - a panoply you can’t get elsewhere, and the reason the majority of students choose UPenn.

It puzzles me when people say you can get a liberal arts education at Penn or Cornell that mirrors what you’d get at Dartmouth or Yale. Such a view limits and winnows out the true richness of the UPenn undergrad experience. If you truly wanted such a setup - have segregated student housing (e.g. dorms for CAS, dorms for Wharton, etc.), and don’t allow cross-registration at school symposia, speaker series, etc. Only then would the CAS experience resemble what you get elsewhere. Once you allow intermixing to occur - from intro level classes onward, the experience differs from what you get elsewhere.

And that’s exactly the point.

(I wonder, btw, what President Gutmann or incoming Provost Pritchett would think of the phrase “Penn’s robust interdisciplinary offerings are merely icing on the cake should a liberal arts undergrad want to take adv. of them.” This is hardly icing to the Penn experience - it’s germane to the school’s mission, from the undergrad environment forward. If students don’t take advantage of this, just like if Duke students don’t go to basketball games - it’s often their loss. They aren’t required to, sure, but… really?)

[45_Percenter]

@Cue7, I think we’ve both had our say on this, ad infinitum (and a big thanks to the moderators for letting us do it!). But I have a couple of questions for you, since you comment a great deal with some certainty on the undergraduate experience at Penn, educational and otherwise. For how many years did you attend graduate school on the Penn campus, and was that in the School of Arts and Sciences? And with how many undergraduates in the College, and representing which majors, did you discuss what you and I have been discussing? Just curious.

[Cue7]

Thanks for the note, @“45 Percenter” - I’ll PM you, as this conversation has indeed gotten off track!

[monydad]

post #24 mentions Cornell.
Like Penn, apparently, many Cornell arts & sciences college (“CAS”) students do choose to take courses at more than one of its colleges, though they don’t have to.
However, unlike Penn apparently, this ability is not that profoundly marketed.

Also it’s true that students from its other colleges may take CAS courses. Mixed enrollment is often the case in many of the lower-level survey courses, in particular. But the degree to which it occurs in upper level courses really varies by field.

I was a physics major, and my fellow undergrad students in my upper level physics and math courses were all CAS students. Or at least everyone I know about was. At the lower level, the “higher” track physics & math courses intended for majors were also all CAS students. Another, “lower” track was for engineering students, but there was a different, analogous course to that for CAS students… Though that one probably also had some enrollment from some of the other colleges…

Some other majors will have mixed enrollment all the way through , particularly Biology. And there will be everything in between.

It is true that everyone mixes in the dorms, and socially in general.
And the CAS courses a Physics major may use to fill distribution requirements may have some non-CAS students in them. But the extent of that depends on the specific courses one selects.

it doesn’t really matter much though. Students in the other colleges do not want to get bad grades either. So chances are if they are signing up to take an upper level CAS course they are probably up to it. My experience was plenty of students at the other colleges were smarter than a lot of CAS students, and you wouldn’t know what college they were in unless you asked them.

[PennCAS2014]

Hi there-- what an interesting conversation that has been had here! Anyway, as the only actual Penn history major currently posting on this thread, I’m happy to report that @“45 Percenter” is, still, the authority on Penn undergrad experience on CC. His post in #23 is spot on. Yes, Penn’s undergraduate experience can be incomparably interdisciplinary but it doesn’t have to be. Additionally, the way you engage with the interdisciplinary opportunities at Penn can differ from your peers. But none of that is that relevant to your actual questions! SO let’s get to those now:

1. What’s the daily/weekly workload like?
   The daily workload is heavy but manageable. Usually you will be assigned weekly readings which you are expected to complete in their entirety- though you can get away with skimming some parts in preparation for larger lectures (but you’ll have to be ready for class discussion in seminars and recitations that are paired with large lectures). Some classes have you write frequent reflection papers on your readings. Others will save most of your writing for your midterm and final exam. I usually spent approximately 3-5 hours per night on my history course work and much more time on the weekends. That still left me time to have several majors/minors and to be very, very involved in campus life. And yes, I slept 6-8 hours per night, ate three meals a day and found time to exercise and see friends (though many of my friends were in my extracurriculars with me).

2. What’s the typical classroom atmosphere?
   The classroom experience will vary depending on the type of class. Large lectures with someone like Professor Childers felt like story time during which this fixture of the Penn History Department tells you the story of World War II in the most engaging, thorough and incredible way. You then break down those stories in recitation which is usually characterized by a lively debate among you, your peers, and an upper level grad student who leads the conversation.

By contrast, in small classes and seminars (which comprise the majority of the classes you’ll take as a history major) it’s all about the students in the class pushing the conversation forward with their interpretations of the readings. There are often very respectful disagreements as you’re going to be surrounded by some of the smartest kids in your generation debating some of the biggest questions in the history of the world. Put simply, it’s a history fan’s dream! I DEEPLY miss the incredible conversations with amazing professors like Mary Frances Berry and Thomas Sugrue (who has unfortunately left Penn for a bigger salary and a free, luxury apartment in NYC) at the head of my 12 person seminars, You don’t often find those incredible conversations in most of the professional world if you aren’t involved in academia in some way.

3. What are some Study Abroad opportunities?
   There are SO many study abroad opportunities. Pretty much every program available to penn students is open to history majors because our requirements are relatively flexible. You can often complete most of your required classes at Penn if you don’t want to take any history courses abroad or you can probably apply certain classes from your program to your major depending on Penn’s policies. Be sure to check out their website about studying abroad. I trust you’ll have a wonderful experience no matter where you go!

4. Is History a very time-consuming major compared to like English or Psych?
   I majored in both History and English and I found that my history major was less time consuming than my English major because in English we were often expected to read entire novels each week and write frequent essays in preparation for discussion while in history we often read excerpts of books and more easily digestible textbook materials (as compared to the somewhat impenetrable prose of certain Russian and French novelists… ).

5. What are the research opportunities like?
   Research opportunities abound. Check out CURF (the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships) as well as the various projects in which your professors are involved. Because Penn is one of the world’s finest research universities, you can be sure that each of your professors is producing groundbreaking scholarship on any range of subjects. Pick the professor doing the research you like most and ask if you can be involved-- i guarantee they will say yes (because they need the help) or they will point you in the direction of another opportunity to do similar work. And don’t forget grad students who need your help too! Penn grad students are the ivy league history professors of tomorrow! Building connections with them and helping them in their research can be very fulfilling as well. Finally, if you have your own research interests, pursue them!! You can request a faculty advisor or just take advantage of Penn’s amazing resources (like the Kislak center and access to Library Company of Philadelphia - America’s first successful lending library and oldest cultural institution according to their website).

6. Does Penn offer an interesting variety of classes?
   THERE ARE SO MANY INTERESTING CLASSES. The variety of classes makes it nearly impossible to choose which ones you want to pursue because they all sound so amazing. I never had trouble filling up my schedule; the challenge was not over enrolling!

A final note on interdisciplinary study at Penn- Yes, Penn has some of the most amazing interdisciplinary opportunities and it has done more than most other universities to make those opportunities available to ALL undergrads no matter their school, area of study, etc. etc. And I do whole-heartedly believe that I was made a better student by being surrounded by people studying in so many different disciplines all living together and taking classes together because their different training led to very different approaches to the subject material. That being said, the majority of your experience as a history major will be strikingly similar to those experiences at the other ivies. The reality is that i read all the same books as the english majors at Brown and Yale and we all came out pretty well educated. Did I enjoy my experience because of the added interdisciplinary opportunities, access to a perfectly sized/beautiful/major urban metropolis, and life on a gorgeous/contiguous/300 acre campus? You bet I did! But those are ‘experiential’ factors that don’t really speak to the quality of education you will receive at these schools. I chose Penn over (primarily) Yale and Columbia because I knew I could get the same rigorous education as my peers in NYC and New Haven with the added benefit of Penn’s interdisciplinary opportunities and campus experience in a city. When thinking about Penn and its peers, the key is to focus on fit because the academic experience will be enriching in different ways among all of them! Good luck

[Cue7]

@PennCAS2014 said - “Yes, Penn’s undergraduate experience can be incomparably interdisciplinary but it doesn’t have to be.”

If that’s still the case, I find it disappointing. UPenn has invested hundreds of millions to make the U more cohesive. If interdisciplinary opportunities are more “value add” rather than embedded in the dna - in the experience - that’s disappointing.

Hopefully that will change with a curricular revamp down the road. I’m far from in the know on undergrad curricular requirements, but what you describe gives pause.

[hamiltondebater]

Thank you for actually answering my question! Thankful for you!

[PennCAS2014]

Hmm, some of our posters seem to still be mischaracterizing the Penn experience, perhaps because they were never undergrads here… A final note on interdisciplinary study at Penn from an actual undergrad alum:

A Penn education is about choice! You can go through Penn and have the most interdisciplinary experience available in higher education or you can avoid the multitude of classes, extracurriculars, research centers, assignments, lectures, speakers, professors, etc., as best you can if it’s not your cup of tea. I agree that Penn has done an EXCEPTIONAL job embedding the interdisciplinary experience in its DNA. But it’s also a testament to the strength and variety of a Penn education that one’s individual experience does not have to be characterized by it if one chooses to avoid it. Something can be true of the whole university that is not true of its individual component parts: Penn offers an incomparably interdisciplinary education but it does not lack for individual, traditional disciplinary depth in each of its offerings, all of which its students are permitted to enjoy in the best way they see fit. In fact, that traditional disciplinary depth is what allows those seeking interdisciplinary offerings to get the amazing education they seek without sacrificing the quality of the programs that captured their primary interests.

I know one english major who fulfilled her requirements, completed the major, lived only with other english majors after freshman year, and was involved in english tutoring in West Philadelphia and other English-focused opportunities through the Kelly Writers House and the creative writing professors. Her experience wasn’t devoid of interdisciplinary components (as no education even at a school like Princeton or Columbia in 2017 could possibly be totally devoid of interdisciplinary components) but it was far less interdisciplinary than my education which included classes in the graduate/professional schools, classes specifically designed from an interdisciplinary perspective, classes with professors who hold appointments across schools, research that cut across departments, and living with and taking classes with friends from across the University. And yet, the strength of Penn’s individual departmental education carried her to one of the top English PhD programs in the country where she continues to thrive.

Characterizing it as just “a value add” completely misses the point! Penn is nearly incomparably interdisciplinary and students love to take advantage of that in the ways THEY want. The beauty of a Penn education is that you can make of it what you want. So if you just want to come to Penn because its English department is truly one of the best in the entire world but you don’t care about the interdisciplinary nature of the University or department as a whole, then you absolutely should matriculate because you’ll get an amazing, rigorous, in-depth education in the discipline of your choosing at a school you like for reasons outside of its interdisciplinary strength! However, if the interdisciplinary experience is something you definitely want, you should avoid schools that aren’t as focused on providing interdisciplinary opportunities to their students as you might find that institution too limiting.

[Cue7]

One sentence summarizes @PennCAS2014 point, and that is: “The beauty of a Penn education is that you can make of it what you want.”

This could also be seen as a pitfall, which was my prior point. And the pitfall could be in presenting options and not more.

Then again, a big part of UPenn’s identity has been to appeal as broadly as possible, so maybe your characterization is apt - Penn can only be classified by its endless opportunity for customization.

How convenient given current admissions trends!