UPenn has always been my dream, but I’ve never been able to visit the campus because of distance. What are some things about UPenn that might not be great?
Hello, I don’t know if this will help or if this is what you’re really asking for/about, but I currently attend UPenn so here is my personal opinion : )
- Expensive tuition and housing
- Suicides not uncommon
- Stressful, high-pressure, pre-professional environment
- You have to apply/interview to join most clubs/student groups
- Grade inflation not as good compared to some other Ivies
- It may be difficult/cumbersome (though usually not impossible) to get into the courses you want
- Advisers are fairly useless
- Participation in research is not difficult, but getting sufficiently paid/funded may be
- I think it's about a 50/50 split btwn professors who care about teaching vs those who really don't give a crap (in which case many lectures, recitations, and labs will turn out to be a straight-up waste of your time)
Every college has its downsides. Depending on your personality, some downsides may seem more or less severe. I think UPenn’s worst aspect may be that it can be hard to retain a perspective on reality and your life as a whole. i.e. It can be easy to fall into a sort of “UPenn bubble” mentality once you arrive here. There are a million opportunities here but they are not as easy to know, grasp, and attain as you might think. Not only courses and clubs, but even social life is rigorous. TIME FLIES–you’ll be very busy here.
However, there are many great things about Penn as well (I’m sure you already know these). I know I gave a lot of complaints, but I would say I’m happy here and continue to feel shocked, grateful, and immensely lucky for the day I received my acceptance letter. I want to be frank in saying it’s not ideal, BUT don’t want to deny the fact that Penn is an amazing institution worthy of being a dream school. If you come here and find yourself rejected from all the clubs you applied for, use your extra time to explore the city or attend talks and symposiums. If you have trouble connecting with others or don’t meet many people you like at first, spend your alone time productively by reading academic journal articles on topics that interest you–there are a lot of articles on fun, pop-culture and other related topics that you won’t have at your fingertips once you leave college. And if your grades aren’t what you want them to be, don’t lock yourself in the library–instead, think about what ELSE you can prioritize to give yourself a potential/real edge over those with higher GPAs.
Penn’s pre-professional environment discourages you from majoring in so-called “useless” topics, but there is no such thing as a completely useless major. I brushed this kind of advice off when I was younger, but it really is true: Pick a major that you both enjoy and are very good at. A philosophy degree (just as an example) from Penn can get you jobs in many non-philosophy fields, so long as you have the relevant extracurriculars (clubs, competitions, internships, self-study) (or relevant electives). Studying what you love is what will showcase your intelligence more than a degree in something you are ambivalent about. These are what will make you stand out to employers more than the name of your major.
^^^co-signing everything here. Current Penn student
Regarding getting into the courses you want, is that for GE, or would that be courses for your major, as well? My son will be a Fine Arts major.
@sbjdorlo I never had a single issue getting courses I wanted (and this includes about a dozen graduate-level electives), so YMMV.
So what kind of person wouldn’t fit into Penn?
With regard to getting courses, I think it’s only a problem for specific courses (i.e. it does depend on the specific person). I wouldn’t say I’ve had a huge excess of these but I’ve had enough that i’ve noticed it as an inconvenience? Mainly getting into popular lab/recitation times, or getting into those courses with reputations for being easy (these often have small class sizes and may be popular among those who want a GPA booster). Just my personal experience though–sorry I can’t really provide more specifics : (
@adizzyone My impression is that a lot of people don’t necessarily feel that UPenn was exactly the right “fit” for them, but nevertheless do have a niche here? It’s hard to say because we have a lot of subcommunities, plus it seems like you can fairly easily isolate yourself from things you might theoretically want to avoid. This is not to say that there isn’t any overarching “Penn culture,” but individuals who don’t fit into this “culture” can still fit in at Penn. sorry I don’t think I’m making much sense lol but maybe someone else who goes here can explain better
But if i HAD to say, maybe someone who highly values a nurturing environment and a close/tight-knit community?
@adach1 “But if i HAD to say, maybe someone who highly values a nurturing environment and a close/tight-knit community?” If you do value a nurturing, close/tight-knit community, then I’d highly recommend you live in one of the 4 year houses (Gregory, Stouffer, DuBois, New College House starting in Fall 2017). The point of 4 year houses is to develop that type of small, tight-knit community that you might not find elsewhere at Penn.
@adach1 @YonceKnowles Wow, looks like other than affordability (about $8k/year all in back then) not much has changed in 35 years.
@adach1 “Stressful, high-pressure, pre-professional environment”
Pen is a very challenging environment in many majors because courses are paced on the ability and the work ethic of the the average student, and Penn students are amazing. Many majors are clearly more difficult than they are at all but a few very selective schools.
What surprises me is that in other threads posters claim that there is no difference between what you learn at a school like Penn, and what you would learn at your average directional U with a significantly lower start point for the average student, often fewer credits required to graduate, and a much more modest homework load. How can that be?
@adach1 “Grade inflation not as good compared to some other Ivies”
I think that Penn is in the middle of the Ivies with about a 3.4 average gpa and a 3.1 or 3.2 for engineering (I am told). Personally, I agree that I would rather see the grading be slightly easier to mitigate the pressure/stress on students.
@adach1 “It may be difficult/cumbersome (though usually not impossible) to get into the courses you want”
So far, DD has been able to get all of the courses she needs. In four semesters, there was one course she wanted that she did not get, but it was for personal interest. Compared to other schools, it seems to be a lot better than average.
@adach1 “Advisers are fairly useless”
I believe this varies widely. DD’s Faculty Advisor has been extremely helpful in cutting through administrative issues. YMMV.
@adach1 “Participation in research is not difficult, but getting sufficiently paid/funded may be”
Often students don’t get paid for research during the school year. In the summer they may receive a stipend to cover food and housing. Still I think that the opportunity to participate in research as an undergraduate is a terrific learning experience and chance to explore your interest in conducting research.
Reviving this thread for a moment, because an important point is missing:
UPenn is NOT (I repeat: NOT) a good place if you’re looking for a languid college experience. While I was in grad school at Penn, I interacted with scores of undergrads, and I was always amazed at how “in motion” they all were. They were always going from class to some meeting to another activity to studying to something else.
Students can carve out almost any type of experience at Penn - there are pockets of Penn that are competitive, with students competing against one another, in inpersonal environments, for clear-cut professional goals. There are other pockets that are much more collaborative, with nurturing relationships between faculty and students. What seems to be the common thread amongst all these experiences, though, is the level of activity present across the board.
This was entirely different from my undergrad experience at Chicago, where there was a lot of emphasis on deep thinking and long, long conversations with people. My fondest memories of college were the numerous dinners in the dining hall that lasted for three hours, with students just sitting and talking. This just doesn’t happen often at Penn - students are too busy with activities to just hang out for hours on end, everyday, for weeks at a time. Moreover, unlike a LAC, opportunities must be sought and gained - they don’t just fall into your lap.
This level of activity can have adverse consequences, especially when it’s coupled with a frail advising/support system. Penn students can feel like they’re on a treadmill, and everyone is in motion around them. Further, the advising/mental health support wasn’t as robust as it should be. This is improving, but there’s been some serious consequences on campus (e.g. suicides) in the past 4-5 years.
So, to students considering Penn, it’s a great place if you can drown out the white noise and if you’re confident about YOU and what YOU want. Students that are good advocates for themselves, are purposeful and thoughtful, and don’t let external activity encroach upon internal aspirations/goals, can thrive at Penn. Those who “float” however, sometimes are startled when they see where the stream takes them.
(For those who want to float, btw, I think LACs are a great choice - lots of nurturing, lots of resources to help you unpack what you want and how you want to grow. Some medium-sized research Unis, like Brown and Chicago, do a pretty good job of this too, but their efforts here may be ebbing.)
@Cue7 The “in motion” description is precisely our D’s experience. In addition to courses and homework, she is heavily involved in clubs, activities, greek life and social life. Virtually every minute of her day is scheduled, but she loves it. I think Penn selects active doers with people skills as part of the process because her experience seems to be typical.
Yes, Penn selects “active doers,” but not everyone is an active doer, and not everyone enjoys being in motion to the heightened extent that one finds at Penn. That’s important for prospectives to know. There are students who enjoy having “every minute of the day scheduled,” but there are many top students for whom such an environment is not optimal.
When I was at Penn, I was baffled to find 18-22 yr olds with every minute scheduled. It was puzzling to me, and, frankly, it looked exhausting. For others, it was perfect. That’s just the atmosphere though, and it is very different from what you can still find at other places.
@cue7 I agree, but I would add that much of the extra experiences my D does are self-inflicted. A more laid-back student could take a much different approach and still have a great experience at Penn, it just isn’t her personality.
The benefit is that Penn EC’s are really only limited by the student. Some evenings D says she has three or four events worth attending and has to prioritize. I think there is a lot of value to experiences beyond the classroom, but students have to decide how much is the right amount for them.
Of course, the extra experiences are self-inflicted, but the point is, that’s Penn’s dominant culture. Sure, there are laid-back students and more languid individuals, but for the most part, UPenn culture is about the buzz of activity.
Further, it’s sometimes hard for young people to block out the white noise and NOT go with the tide. If everyone else is off at meetings and activities and extra curriculars, it’s hard to be the outlier. And, most Penn students keep their schedules very packed.
Again, this has adverse consequences. Just ask any of the counselors in the Penn mental health office (CAPS) - the pressures here are very real, and a significant subset of the students definitely struggle, no matter how selective the school has become. (Some even say the increased selectivity makes everything even more intense on campus - the screws are turned even more, so to speak. Every year, applications to different clubs grow, and the atmosphere of constant activity only increases.)
(Side note - I was unfamiliar with the need to “apply” to be in a student group. At Chicago, there were more club spaces than there were students, so you could just sign up for any club you want. At Penn, some clubs are quite selective and hard to join. The expectations in some of the clubs are quite high as well.)
Again, can you be a laid back student at Penn? Sure. Can you avoid academic challenge at Chicago or Swarthmore? Sure.
A dominant strain can exist, though, and students should be cognizant of this. Your D seems to be like a fish in water at Penn Much2Learn, but I imagine there are more students similar to her than completely the opposite.
@Cue7, if you don’t mind saying, which graduate program were you in at Penn? And what was the basis and extemt of your interaction with undergraduates while you were there?
@“45 Percenter”
I don’t want to give too much away here but I was in one of the professional schools. (A school where you can get a terminal or masters degree in a fairly concrete field.) on campus, I did a lot of mentoring for some undergrad clubs, did a lot with the Philos, did some volunteering/tutoring in the Weingarten learning center, and also played a bunch of pickup sports with undergrads. So I got to know a wide range of undergrads in all sorts of contexts.
@cue7 “for the most part, UPenn culture is about the buzz of activity…Your D seems to be like a fish in water at Penn”
I think that both of these statements are true.
“this has adverse consequences…a significant subset of the students definitely struggle”
It is true that juggling a lot of activities enhances a students experience, but can also be stressful. Although, in a different way, so does U Chicago’s “life of the mind” approach.
For example, if I had to read Emerson’s “Nature” and then spend hours with my classmates pondering the deep meaning, I would be headed for CAPS myself. I would not be able to get beyond wondering why we are reading a book about nature that is written by someone who knows almost nothing about nature, but thinks he does. “This makes no sense to me. It is like reading a book about literature written by Charles Darwin”, I would say. I imagine everyone at UofC would be staring disapprovingly at me as, if I am clueless. I am sure I would be an epic failure. lol
Yet, Penn is known for a long and preeminent history of pioneering interdisciplinary study. So there you are. 
Excellent–and entertaining–post, by the way. 