<p>Does such a program exist?</p>
<p>Yes. (And at most top schools you can work out an Ad Hoc Program.)</p>
<p>what would be the advantages of pursuing this program??</p>
<p>Intellectual stimulation, a career in Academia, etc. Downside: Cost and, for some people, time.</p>
<p>Cost should not be a factor, since decent Ph.D programs give full-tuition, and in some cases, stipends to their students.</p>
<p>"Cost should not be a factor"</p>
<p>Yes, but most people still have to pay for the JD.</p>
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Yes, but most people still have to pay for the JD.
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</p>
<p>...and that is not a specific downside to pursuing a joint-program. It is just a downside of pursuing a J.D.</p>
<p>Nspeds, if your pursue a joint-program you are, most likely, delaying significant income. Thus, make it the joint-degree more expensive. </p>
<p>Furthermore, in the case of a JD/PHD you would take significantly longer to complete both; whereas a JD/MBA would take 4 years, the JD/PHD would take at least seven.</p>
<p>One should also look into the specific terms of the loan used to pay for the JD (law school are notorious for not giving significant financial aid). Will you need to start paying it while you complete the PHD? Just interests?</p>
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if your pursue a joint-program you are, most likely, delaying significant income. Thus, make it the joint-degree more expensive.
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</p>
<p>No... students in Ph.D programs need not complete it in six years. There are cases where students take longer (because of a job). My former philosophy professor is into his ninth year. There is a famous case where one is in his 25th year. </p>
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in the case of a JD/PHD you would take significantly longer to complete both; whereas a JD/MBA would take 4 years, the JD/PHD would take at least seven.
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<p>Yes, but if I am not mistaken, and I do not know how this is done, the law degree is still completed in three years.</p>
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The first two semesters of law and the first four semesters of philosophy must be taken consecutively; after that, the student may alternate semesters between the two programs.
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</p>
<p>
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Overview
Students will be registered in only one School during any given semester/term.</p>
<p>They will be expected to complete all requirements for the JD degree within six years of the date they first enroll in either the Law School or GSAS; they may graduate from the Law School before completing the PhD.</p>
<p>Ordinarily, students must have satisfactorily completed at least 16 half courses and have paid four terms of full tuition to receive the PhD. Students will have two primary faculty advisors, one at the Law School and one at GSAS, who will jointly advise students.</p>
<p>Course of Study at the Law School and GSAS
Students will be expected to complete the first-year program, three upper-level fall or spring semesters, and two winter terms at the Law School, for a total of five fall or spring semesters and two winter terms.</p>
<p>In lieu of the sixth Law School semester generally required of JD students, students in the Coordinated Program take that sixth semester at GSAS, completing courses or dissertation work pre-approved by the Law School and equivalent to at least ten Law School credits.</p>
<p>Students ordinarily will be expected to complete at least four years (eight terms) in GSAS. There may be opportunities for cross-registration.
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</p>
<p>Note that, if I am not mistaken, there is no established limit on how long one must take to finish his or her Ph.D. When writing a dissertation, deadlines are missed and life happens. Advisors understand this, but will boot students if they are slacking or if there is a perceived consistent lack of progress. At any rate, I know students who take longer than six years on their Ph.D because of a job and such.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that students who enroll in joint programs are usually aiming for a career in academia. Do not thus expect to see them doing big firm work and writing their dissertation simultaneously, for the former is not the most conducive to attaining an academic career and it is too time-consuming.</p>
<p>"The first two semesters of law and the first four semesters of philosophy must be taken consecutively; after that, the student may alternate semesters between the two programs."</p>
<p>Wouldn't this indicate that you need to complete at least three years consecutively? You won't be making six figures without finishing the JD. One year of law school at a top private law school is around $50k -- increasing yearly. And, isn't interest accruing during all that time? </p>
<p>Once the JD is completed, I agree you can take a job and take longer to finish the PhD. However, I am not sure you can receive a JD before completing the due coursework at the law school -- not the graduate school. If the first three years are spent at different schools, with one at the law school and two at the graduate school, I seriously doubt you will receive a JD at the end of the third year. Thus, you would not be able to have a high paying job that would make it possible to pay the loans. Sure, you may only have one year of law school worth in loans, but thats still around $50K or more + interests. Fellowships and living stipends usually dont amount to much. </p>
<p>I wonder when the guy 25 years into his doctorate was done paying loans.</p>
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Wouldn't this indicate that you need to complete at least three years consecutively?
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</p>
<p>Actually, no...</p>
<p>at HLS, when combined with a Ph.D, the total time spent at a law school is five semesters, not the usual six.</p>
<p>Also, one might be accumulating interest for those four semesters of philosophy, but the kind of money one will make coming out of HLS is not enough to make one worry about it.</p>
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I seriously doubt you will receive a JD at the end of the third year.
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<p>That much is obvious.</p>
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Sure, you may only have one year of law school worth in loans, but thats still around $50K or more + interests.
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</p>
<p>Once again... coming out of HLS really does not have that effect. Once the J.D. is earned, I am sure the additional time spent paying off those additional loans is negligible. Surely you did not write your first response to me with the intention of saying that the cost of a J.D./Ph.D is significantly higher than a J.D. such that a serious candidate for the former would be deterred from pursuing it for that very reason.</p>
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I wonder when the guy 25 years into his doctorate was done paying loans.
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<p>Well... if you think a little... joint-programs are a relatively recent phenomena. So if he did his law degree before the Ph.D, I would think that he paid it off... just a hunch.</p>
<p>
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"The first two semesters of law and the first four semesters of philosophy must be taken consecutively; after that, the student may alternate semesters between the two programs."
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</p>
<p>Also, I do not think you are interpreting this the same way as I, and this could be because Harvard is just being ambiguous. I interpreted the above as saying not that one must do one year of law and then two years of philosophy, but rather the semesters of the first year of law must be taken consecutively, and the semesters of the first two years of philosophy must be taken consecutively. The evidence available favors the latter interpretation: some 1L courses are actually a year long.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that though one still must do three years for the J.D., the second semester of the third year is substituted with a semester of philosophy.</p>
<p>I see it thus as follows:
1L, 2L, 3L(a), 3L(b) (J.D. earned). In 3L(b), the student starts his philosophy curriculum. All the above conditions are fulfilled, and no loans pile up.</p>
<p>"Surely you did not write your first response to me with the intention of saying that the cost of a JD/PhD is significantly higher than a J.D. such that a serious candidate for the former would be deterred from pursuing it for that very reason."</p>
<p>Not at all. I think the JD/PhD is a fine choice. Nevertheless, I believe that its very important for the serious candidate --and imperative for the more casual one-- to consider all the possible downsides of pursuing a joint degree. For some the time factor may be an issue and somewhat of a burden, as one could teach with only a JD; while others may consider paying back loans too much of an unnecessary burden, and simply decide to complete a PhD (no small feat!).</p>
<p>I am a big fan of disagreement, as it exposes factors, both positive and negative, that otherwise may go unnoticed. </p>
<p>And yes, I am interpreting the consecutiveness as one year at the law school followed by two years at the graduate school. Thus, making it more difficult to earn the JD and consequently delaying ones ability to earn substantial income.</p>
<p>Let's not forget that the high paying jobs that a graduate of HLS might take typically are the same jobs that require a significant amount of time at work -- let's say a minimum of 60-70 hours a week. There wouldn't be a lot of time to work at a high paying job in law and continue your work towards your PhD. Now, you might be able to find a much lower paying job in law that demands fewer hours on the job, but high paying and lots of hours usually go hand in hand.</p>
<p>also, from what i hear, getting a joint degree can be a detriment when applying for firm jobs--employers assume (perhaps rightly) that if you're going for the second degree, you're not as committed to practicing law with them and will end up going off to teach. </p>
<p>this is probably more true for a phd in humanities/social science and less true if your second degree is in a language or technical field that could really enhance your practice of a specific area of law (accounting, science/engineering, something medical if you want to do malpractice, etc.)</p>
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And yes, I am interpreting the consecutiveness as one year at the law school followed by two years at the graduate school. Thus, making it more difficult to earn the JD and consequently delaying ones ability to earn substantial income.
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</p>
<p>...and from my conversations with professors and the evidence I gave in the previous page, the preponderance of evidence contradicts your interpretation.</p>
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I am a big fan of disagreement, as it exposes factors, both positive and negative, that otherwise may go unnoticed.
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</p>
<p>I agree. Unfortunately, the negative factors you explicate do not arise.</p>
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Let's not forget that the high paying jobs that a graduate of HLS might take typically are the same jobs that require a significant amount of time at work -- let's say a minimum of 60-70 hours a week.
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</p>
<p>I realized this when I as posting previously, which is why I said that a Ph.D candidate could delay his dissertation defense because of a job, life, and so forth. Advisors, especially the ones I know at Harvard, are generous and understanding.</p>
<p>
[quote]
also, from what i hear, getting a joint degree can be a detriment when applying for firm jobs--employers assume (perhaps rightly) that if you're going for the second degree, you're not as committed to practicing law with them and will end up going off to teach.
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</p>
<p>Definitely, which is why I said in a previous post that those pursuing a joint degree are usually heading for a career in academia.</p>
<p>A thought... </p>
<p>Let's presume HLS and Harvard for a Ph.D. Let's assume that the Ph.D. is funded (somehow). Here's the thing:</p>
<p>HLS costs about $60,000 per year, with everything all in. If you pay your way through Harvard with loans, that's $180,000 (maybe minus about ten grand if you get a sweet summer job). Once you go for a Ph.D., you can defer repayment; however, most of those loans will be accruing interest. 6% interest (not a bad approximation) and five years (roughly) for a Ph.D. - you're going to be about $250,000 in debt once you start repaying those loans. </p>
<p>Harvard, specifically, has a phenomenally generous repayment plan. I do not know if it repays loans while you pursue a Ph.D., I do know that it doesn't have a salary cap. However, those loans are going to dominate your life. Even with LIPP, the liability may make it more difficult for you to qualify for a home loan. </p>
<p>Finally, I know that y'all aren't thinking about this now, but marriage might also reduce the amount of loan forgiveness from a school (I know that my school takes a spouse's income into consideration). After a JD and a Ph.D., you'll probably be married or thinking about it - so two incomes, yes, but (possibly) two debts and it might preclude you from getting Harvard's very generous loan forgiveness.</p>
<p>Jonri knows an amazing amount about Harvard's LIPP; ask him. All I can say is that you should take the compound interest on your loans into consideration. Perhaps you could do the Ph.D. first and then the JD (realistically, you're not going to work at a law firm and get a Ph.D. simultaneously), so your loans aren't accruing interest while you pursue the Ph.D.</p>