Ph.D and JD...?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>I know the question about joint JD/MBA degrees has been asked several times, but this is a bit different.</p>

<p>I am planning on going to law school, and I want a law degree (this is what I want for the moment, I cannot say that it cannot change). However, I am very interested in getting a Ph.D in Philosophy and do not know whether it would make more sense to first get my Ph.D and then get my JD or if I should do them at the same time (is this even possible?). I'm assuming it won't look bad if I already have a Ph.D when I apply to law school, I honestly know nothing about this. I also don't see myself getting a JD before a Ph.D.</p>

<p>Thanks for any help.</p>

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<p>Have you considered Jurisprudence -- check out UC Berkeley, Boalt Law School.</p>

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<p>Yeah, it can be possible, and it might save you a little time. Basically how it works is, you independently apply and get into the two programs at the same university. THEN you talk to both programs about designing a schedule that makes use of the overlap in fields.</p>

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<p>Penn has a JD/Ph.D. program that you might find interesting (I've included the information from the Penn Law website below). Penn Law has a long history of having professors with joint appointments to the Law School and to the Philosophy Department.</p>

<p>Philosophy - J.D./Ph.D. (Department of Philosophy)
Length of Program/Primary Requirements: This is a six year program.
General Requirements: Students take years one and two in the Philosophy Department, taking seven courses in year one (split 4/3 by semesters) all in Philosophy. In year two, the load is reduced to six courses, four in the Philosophy Department, with one elective and one course selected from the Jurisprudence List of Law School courses.
Year three is spent full-time in the 1L Law School curriculum. The remaining two years of course work are completed at the Law School and include three courses necessary toward the Ph.D from the Law Jurisprudence List.</p>

<p>Note: The Law School provides tuition and general fees and a stipend during the third year of the program in the form of an interest-free loan. This loan is repayable over a five-year term at the interest rates then prevailing beginning five years after the award of the J.D. if the student is not in academic employment at that time. The loan is forgiven if the student commences academic employment within five years and continues to be so employed for four of six years.</p>

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<p>Wow. Thanks to all of you.</p>

<p>That program at Penn sounds absolutely great. I will definitely consider it. Thanks sallyawp for the info -- Penn sounds like a university that I would love to attend for graduate school.</p>

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<p><a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/lawsch.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/lawsch.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topchoice.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/topchoice.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Stuff to consider. You generally have to apply to both program independently, and often have both LSAT and GRE scores, but this is not always true. Hopefully nspeds will contribute to this thread.</p>

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<p>Many dual-enrollment programs with philosophy are not well publicized. However, very often, there is collusion between the law school and the philosophy department, so you should investigate particular schools you are interested in, even if it does not look like there is such a program from a glance at their website. J.D./PhD’s are highly marketable, and joint appointments are not uncommon at all. From what I’ve learned, you can shave a year off of your coursework for your PhD, but you will still spend three years on the J.D. Also, you have to apply to each program independently, though some schools have a specific program coordinator who seems to have an ambiguous role.</p>

<p>The links that DRab posted are a good starting point.</p>

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<p>Also, the guy who wrote them - the polemical Brian Leiter - is a Nietzsche scholar.</p>

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<p>About how long does it take to complete a JD/PHD program?</p>

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<p>It depends. In philosophy, at least 7 years, but as long as 9 or 10. I haven't researched other fields. This is because philosophy PhD programs can differ pretty significantly in terms of length.</p>

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<p>Very nice... Thank you for the links DRab, that's pretty much what I was looking for.</p>

<p>The Penn site says that their program takes 6 years which seems short to me. </p>

<p>Calipharius, thanks for the information, I really think that I will consider doing some kind of joint program... And I didn't know that Brian Leiter was a Nietzsche scholar (well, I couldn't tell from his site). Nietzsche isn't usually very popular in the US, is he?...</p>

<p>DRab and Calipharius -- Are you philosophy students? and if so, are you in grad school or planning on going (to study philosophy)? and on what are you focuding/do you want to focus?</p>

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<p>Nietzsche is popular in the US amongst many students and to some professors. He's one of the most influential thinkers of the past two hundred years.</p>

<p>Philosophy student perhaps planning on philosophy graduate study (or law, or both? or being a hobo :)).</p>

<p>I'm not sure what I want to focus on yet.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Have you considered Jurisprudence -- check out UC Berkeley, Boalt Law School.

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</p>

<p>...or check out an even better school: NYU Law School. They have Jeremy Waldron, Ronald Dworking, and Thomas Nagel. You cannot beat them unless you work with Jules Coleman at YLS.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Penn has a JD/Ph.D. program that you might find interesting (I've included the information from the Penn Law website below). Penn Law has a long history of having professors with joint appointments to the Law School and to the Philosophy Department.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Unfortunately, the philosophy department at Penn is not that good; if the OP is looking to teach in philosophy, the Penn Ph.D does not place as well as, say, a Rutgers, NYU, MIT, or Princeton Ph.D.</p>

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[quote]
You generally have to apply to both program independently, and often have both LSAT and GRE scores, but this is not always true.

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</p>

<p>This is correct. You must apply to both programs independently, and all requirements for both programs must be fulfilled. If you are accepted at both, you can petition to have both programs combined.</p>

<p>In rare circumstances, students can combine a J.D. from one school with a Ph.D from another. In this case, some Ph.D programs might not require a GRE score. Schools like Cornell and MIT come to mind.</p>

<p>
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This is because philosophy PhD programs can differ pretty significantly in terms of length.

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</p>

<p>Yes, with the decider being how long one decides to take on their dissertation.</p>

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<p>Thanks very much nspeds. What university do you think would be a good choice? And do you know if a doctoral paper can be on any philosophical topic or if it must be on something specific?</p>

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<p>
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What university do you think would be a good choice?

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<p>Well... for Ph.Ds, you should look at placement. Leiter's rankings are good, but Rutgers still does not place as well as Yale, who is ranked much lower.</p>

<p>I would target programs with consistently good placement, such as Harvard, Princeton, and MIT. That is my opinion.</p>

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And do you know if a doctoral paper can be on any philosophical topic or if it must be on something specific?

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<p>when you apply to a program, you need to be specific about what you want to do. Most students who apply have interests that are outside the expertise of a certain department, and are thus rejected. In other words, if you want to work in a department, your interests and, by implication, your dissertation must fall in line with the capabilities of the department. A paper entirely devoted to Nietzsche, for example, will not fly at a place like Princeton.</p>

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<p>Great. All that information is very useful. </p>

<p>I do not particularly care about job placement as I do not plan on becoming a professor of philosophy. Still, though, if I change my mind (which I very well could) I'd like to have that as a possibility. I am aware that few graduates will hold prestigious positions.</p>

<p>What I mean to say is that (in the end) I care more that a university let me write a thesis on something I enjoy (or dare I say actually specialize in it) than I do about placement. That said, I would like to attend a somewhat prestigious university.</p>

<p>Do you know of any universities that would let me write a thesis entirely devoted to Nietzsche? Meaning, what universities are open to this kind of philosophy... I do not want to end up writing something on Kant like a large percentage of doctoral students (as much as I respect Kant, he is not my favorite philosopher).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Do you know of any universities that would let me write a thesis entirely devoted to Nietzsche? Meaning, what universities are open to this kind of philosophy... I do not want to end up writing something on Kant like a large percentage of doctoral students (as much as I respect Kant, he is not my favorite philosopher).

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<p>Look for schools that specialize in Nietschian scholarship. The philosophicalgourmet is a useful guide: (I am not sure I agree with the inclusion of Princeton on that list. Oh well)
<a href="http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown.htm#26%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/breakdown.htm#26&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Group 1 (1-5) (mean of 4.0)</p>

<p>Oxford University (4.5)
Princeton University (4.0)
University of Chicago (4.5)
University of Texas, Austin (4.5)
University of Warwick (4.0)</p>

<p>Group 2 (6-11) (mean of 3.5)</p>

<p>Cambridge University (3.5)
Northwestern University (3.5)
Stanford University (3.5)
University of California, Riverside (3.5)
University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign (3.5)
University of Notre Dame (3.5)</p>

<p>Group 3 (12-20) (mean of 3.0)</p>

<p>Birkbeck College, University of London (3.0)
Boston University (3.5)
Brown University (3.25)
Columbia University (3.0)
New York University (3.5)
State University of New York, Stony Brook (3.0)
University College London (3.5)
University of Auckland (3.0)
University of Wisconsin, Madison (3.0)</p>

<p>Also Notable (median of 3.0): Pennsylvania State University; University of California, San Diego.</p>

<p>In addition, the aggregated faculties of the colleges making up the University of London received a rounded mean score of 3.0 and a median score of 4.0.</p>

<p>In the judgment of the Advisory Board, the following programs that were not part of the survey ought to be considered by students interested in this area: University of Southampton.</p>

<p>Evaluators: Kenneth Baynes, Frederick Beiser, Maudemarie Clark, Sebastian Gardner, Robert Hopkins, Peter Kail, Pierre Keller, Brian Leiter, Stephen Mulhall, Frederick Neuhouser, Peter Poellner, Mathias Risse, Michael Rosen, Richard Schacht, Robert Stern, Robert Wicks, Allen Wood, Julian Young. (Remember: Evaluators were not permitted to evaluate their own department or the department from which they received their graduate degree.)

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<p>You rock nspeds. Thanks for the help. I assume you're studying philosophy as well? What kind of philosophy do you like? Do you plan on getting a Ph.D and/or a JD?</p>

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<p>
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What kind of philosophy do you like?

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<p>Normativity (rational choice theory, and ethics), philosophy of science, philosophy of physics, advanced logic, and maybe the philosophy of language.</p>

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Do you plan on getting a Ph.D and/or a JD?

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<p>I would like to earn both.</p>

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<p>Do you know where you'd like to go, or have you not yet decided? I really enjoy philosophy of language and normativity as well (philosophy of physics and science as well as logic are all also rather interesting, but I would never focus on them). How's philosophy at Georgetown? Are you majoring in philosophy? Sorry for all the questions; but I never get to talk to people interested in philosophy, especially not people planning on or currently studying it. I hope I'm not bothering you.</p>