These two colleges seem quite similar to me, and are both at the top of my list. I’ve visited both, but if anyone could give pros/cons to either of them that would be greatly appreciated!
You have another post about F&M versus St. Lawrence. Why don’t you put all the schools you are considering together?
Can you list net price for each?
To find net cost, do:
(tuition+fees+room+board) - (scholarships+grants) =
St. Lawrence has a reputation as a party school for rich kids who aren’t necessarily smart; this came from a professor at a big state school in the south who did his undergrad there. F and M is a serious academic setting. Lots of work, and a fair amount of pressure, as a faculty member there said to me. Isn’t that why you are going to college?
St L has changed, a lot, from when a current prof would have gone to undergrad there. Take a look at the St L board to see more recent conversations. St L is using merit aid to attract a targeted group of students, including students from diverse backgrounds. An interesting place, with great outdoorsy opportunities, including the Adirondack semester.
Both HWS and St. Lawrence are academically underrated. There are some very successful recent graduates from both colleges.
At certain points in its history, St. Lawrence appears to have been a comparatively very strong academic school. These are their SAT math scores as published in 1980 and compared to some other schools:
Duke: 633
Hamilton: 630
St. Lawrence: 600
Michigan: 590
UC-Berkeley: 585
Vassar: 578
Bowdoin: 570
UNC-Chapel Hill: 564
NYU: 560
Southern California: 495
Figures are pre-recalibration (1995).
What are you looking for in a school? What are your interests and which one is the best financial fit?
Currently, St. Lawrence’s standardized scores are equivalent to those at the University of Delaware, for whatever that might imply.
Lehigh has always had very high academic standards for admission, yet it is one of the most party-ridden schools in the country. Other big party schools include: Tulane (#1 in the country I am told), NYU, Ann Arbor, Vanderbilt and Colgate. Far and away better schools than Lawrence.
“Far and away better schools than [St.] Lawrence” (#9)
The referenced schools are more selective. I wouldn’t call them better.
@cutepug I doubt Lehigh is any more “party-ridden” than other schools.
To come back to the OP’s question – I don’t know Hobart William Smith, so can only address St Lawrence in detail. We visited St L several times, and my kid would have been happy to attend. The student body is less diverse than at some schools (Grinnell, Denison, to name two that we know), but the Common Data set suggests it is not far from Dickinson range of diversity. My kid liked the strong first year studies program, with all students taking a writing based seminar and – I believe but you’d have to confirm – that students in the same seminar are housed in the same dorm/hall together, to create a strong bond of shared experience. There is a DC semester option available, the Adirondak semester, and lots of others. My kid also liked that Greek life was not overwhelming, again, the Common Data set reports Greek life participation at under 20% and it may be closer to 10%. St L has D1 hockey, and the rivalry with some schools (Clarkson?) is huge. The athletic facilities overall are gorgeous, the student bookstore is more of a general store for students than the usual books and spirit wear. The town is small but quaint (bigger than Gambier where Kenyon is located), and has some restaurants and a movie theater, 2 blocks from campus. Bigger stores, including a very good grocery store, are about a mile (I’m guessing) away. SUNY Potsdam is about 10 miles away, so there is a greater concentration of students in the area than just at St L itself. Campus is a cozy blend of building styles, from the traditional Dana dining hall, to the ski lodge of the new student center and the light and airy Kirk Douglas dorm. Some facilities could use an upgrade for sure, but the school seems to be putting money into buildings and into strong merit award to attract a more diverse student body. What’s not to love about the school where Kirk Douglas and Viggo Mortenson went?
I believe that HWS has more Greek life so that would be a significant difference. As a combined community – with Hobart being the former men’s college and William Smith being the former women’s college – a student would have to visit to know how they feel about the campus layout and organization. HWS was the subject of a '14 NY Times in-depth article on the school’s handling of a rape investigation, so the name of the school is linked to that, in some minds and again, a student would want to know how that affects campus life going forward.
Thank you, Midwest… for the in-depth feedback on SLU. I have been accepted into both schools and the financial packages are very similar, less than $2000 difference between the two. I have visited HWS three times now, including an overnight but have only visited SLU once. Also I didn’t eat at SLU and am wondering what the food scene is like (I’m vegetarian). I wouldn’t like to be eating unsatisfactory meals for four years… The food at HWS seemed okay…
College Niche is very accurate on food ratings. I would say having eaten at SLU the food is OK with adequate choices. However it wouldn’t be close to tops for food but after three meals I saw nothing to suggest it is a problem.
I have kids at both schools. They are very similar. The biggest distinction that comes to mind is that the Fraternities at HWS are a major driver of the social scene. Kids at SLU don’t have much interest in Fraternity life. Fraternities at Hobart go back to the last century. There are no sororities. The fraternities at HWS have taken a well-deserved pounding for some bad behavior in the past but President Gearan has done a commendable job of bringing them into the 21st century.
SLU is far more isolated than HWS. Geneva is in the heart of Finger Lakes Wine country and so there is more to it than just a college town. It is closer to Rochester and Syracuse so it is a little closer to fly in and out of and has more variety for food. It is also on Seneca Lake which is a little more picturesque than SLU. There are better bars and restaurants at HWS due in part to the wine tourism. There are definitely more hotels and lodging opportunities at HWS for parents weekend and graduation than at SLU.
There are only two hotels in Canton and they are booked a year in advanced for parents weekend and graduation. Still, the options in Geneva might mean that there are just more food chains than Canton. Canton has a Burger King and a Subway. Geneva has those plus an Arby’s, McDonalds, etc. All kidding aside, there have been weekends, especially during Freshman and Sophomore year where we wanted to visit Canton for an overnight and there was no place to stay. We seriously looked into renting a motor home and on parents weekend, behind the ice arena, there are plenty of RV’s parked in a back parking lot, with their generators running. It looks like a Walmart but they make the best of it.
I believe the kids at SLU are perhaps a little more laid back and less “clicky” than HWS, with HWS being a little preppier but not by much. I also think that kids at HWS are a little more political and there is perhaps a little more bias toward the liberal/fine arts. HWS just built a huge performing arts center.
SLU is probably better at providing more of a grass roots entertainment environment with “open mike” performances. HWS has the “Barn.” SLU has the “Java Barn.” Both are places for entertainment. Again, one of the reasons is probably the fraternities. The Java Barn is many times the place to be on weekend, especially for underclassmen because there is no other place to be. The Barn at HWS is similar but probably diluted a little bit because the fraternities provide an alternative venue for social life.
I would consider HWS students more aware of gender issues because of the coordinate heritage of the schools.
I would give a tip of the hat to SLU for its First Year Program (FYP) as it seemed to be a great way to help kids transition into college life. In your first year, your dorm is chosen based on the FYP program you chose. Kind of like a little Harry Potter theme where you have friendly competitions with other FYP’s so there is some bonding. HWS is far more accommodating to single sex dorms which is important to some kids, especially girls. It is part of the HWS “coordinate college” heritage. On the other hand, this tends to cause HWS to run in to housing log jams, causing them to force kids in to triples as was our child’s experience until rooms opened up.
On the one hand I think SLU did a much better job of making the kids feel at home early on than HWS but on the other hand I think HWS did a better job of understanding that young girls are uncomfortable about their bodies and need their privacy and would not feel all that comfortable walking down the hall to showers while boys were doing the same thing in a coed dorm.
SLU is probably more outdoorsy. There are a lot of kids at SLU into hiking the Adirondacks and skiing, not being far from Vermont and Lake Placid. There is a SLU tradition of one weekend each fall, where SLU kids are simultaneously at the top of all 46 High Peaks in the Adirondacks.
Academically, they are both great. Small class size, the profs know the kids by first name. Both schools have strong abroad programs and an academic culture emphasizing bi-disciplinary studies. I think HWS’s study abroad program may be a little stronger than SLU partly because, SLU is so isolated and because the kids enjoy each other’s company so much, that the school has created a great little “cocoon” where not as many kids want to wander off campus as much as HWS. That is probably a simultaneous backhanded compliment and critique of both schools.
Both school’s athletic departments are well funded and appropriately focused on “student athletes.” Both have great school spirit, lots of traditions, and a loyal alumni network. Both have very generous merit scholarships available to kids of more modest means with good grades but there are also plenty of full freight kids there as well.
Either school will teach you how to write, speak, and think. Good skills to have.
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