<p>Yes, there are contracts to work in rural areas which are enforceable. They involve using punitive monetary penalties as an enforcement tool. These contracts involve an exchange of monies. Med students receive financial support to attend medical school contingent on their serving 2-4 years in underserved [rural or inner city] areas.</p>
<p>And there are “outs” in the contract–as in the med graduate can choose to buy out his obligation (amount of support plus a penalty)–which does happen with some frequency.</p>
<p>But an acceptance to medical school based on a future promise to practice in a rural area–there’s no way to enforce that. No contract involved.</p>
<p>correct me if i’m wrong, but the “excel method” is not used by law school, any PhD program, business school, or employers? Why should medical school be any different?</p>
<p>I 100% agree that “why this medical school” could be dropped or weighed less in the process. That is neither what the article talks about nor what I am talking about. All I’m saying is that there is a difference between smart and doctor just like there is a difference between smart and lawyer or smart and engineer or smart and banker or smart and [insert job here]. Why shouldn’t we be looking at everything we possibly can when evaluating applicants for any position? My point isn’t that smart should be held against them, the point is that smart isn’t enough or that just because someone didn’t have access to the same resources doesn’t mean they aren’t as smart or smarter.</p>
<p>And it’s not just rural areas where access to physicians is an issue. Insurance coverage and people’s schedules plays a huge role too.</p>
<p>^ very true. Unfortunately , we still have the burden for many years due to some history event. (I said this as an non-URM.)</p>
<p>A similar phenomenon is: have you ever seen s white pastor in a church where all members are African Americans? Or. Their community leader is not African American?</p>
<p>In our city, it was once reported some of the tension between the police department and URM communities was due to the fact that almost all of the polices are white (at that time. )</p>
<p>^Then why hide behind the “holistic review” banner. Let’s go ahead and call it a program to correct past injustices and establish a new social order. </p>
<p>I haven’t seen a white pastor in a black church, but I have seen plenty of black patients in a white doctor’s office and vice versa. </p>
<p>I am not sure how your example of tension between URM communities and white police is relevant to this conversation, unless you are saying that there are tensions in black communities with only white doctors. Confused…</p>
<p>We have two programs in Texas that start at the undergrad level. One is recruiting low income students based on their PELL grant status and the second is recruiting people from rural areas.</p>
<p>I don’t know if this is a better way to do it but I think it ensures they get better training at the undergrad level to be prepared for medical schools. I notice the rural recruits are being asked to hang out with community based physicians during undergrad.</p>
<p>There is another program which ensures people in rural and predominantly minority colleges get representation.</p>
No, I can’t. I am very suspicious when somebody claims that they came up with a new process that can.</p>
<p>tesxaspg, UI has a program called RMED that trains the rural physicians. They require matriculants to sign a non-binding pledge. Ohio has some similar program. I think that these programs are a lot better alternatives to this holistic review thing, in producing rural doctors. Enforced or not, these pledges and contracts are lot surer things than some assumption ADCOM makes during the admissions process.</p>
<p>I prefer to call it what it really is: doing our best to identify the best candidates (not necessarily the smartest candidates) to treat ALL patients. Or I guess we could call it what it is: program to ensure that physicians are not all wealthy white men as it has been for centuries.</p>
<p>Fair enough. Let me ask you a question, since you are still a student and not that far removed from the process yourself. Based on whatever little I know about you, you sound like a high achiever who worked for his grades and MCAT scores. Suppose, a few years ago when you were going through the process, ADCOMs started parsing your application to apply this vague holistic process, assuming that it existed then. Based on a couple of lose sentences in your essays and may be one or two lose answers to some vague interview questions, they decided that you would not be a “successful physician”. Adding insult to that injury, you also came to know another guy from your own school who had poor stats was accepted. You knew that you are a compassionate person with a burning desire to be a doctor. However, because of the imperfections of the process that tried to assess your personal qualities through a few sound bytes, you couldn’t get in. How would you have felt? Betrayed by the process or overjoyed that the ADCOMs saved the society from the bad doctor you could have become? </p>
<p>Normally, I don’t like getting into these religious battles. Yesterday and today, I am alone at home and put texaspg’s advice into praactice to have some fun with the debates over here I won’t respond anymore. I am just curious to see whether you would have felt the same way, if things got personal.</p>
<p>Actually, this is an issue that D1 and I also talked about with the holistic admission yesterday. She’s said that prior to getting to know her classmates, she thought the process was unfair towards “white, middle class kids”, that they had a higher bar to jump in admissions. However, she says now that coming to know her classmates and the obstacles they’ve overcome, she can see why they were selected over someone like her ex. (A 3.9GPA/40 MCAT white, upper-middle class male with almost zero community service).</p>
<p>Could her ex have become a successful physician? Probably. </p>
<p>Were his people skills so defective that he would have been a bad doctor? I don’t think so and I knew the fellow for 2 years.</p>
<p>Would he have made a better doctor than one of current classmates? Maybe. Maybe not. It’s all going to depend on your definition of better.</p>
<p>I guess the point is that medical education is limited resource. There are always going to be deserving individuals who are going to be denied access to the resource.</p>
<p>And I think the holistic admission process doesn’t eliminate an individual on a couple of “lose” sentences in an essay. It evaluates admission by looking at a larger pattern of behaviors, achievements, activities, evaluations within the context of an individual’s unique background.</p>
<p>(From those who have been given much, much is expected.)</p>
<p>I experienced exactly what you are talking about at the college level. At the time I was ****ed off but have since come to recognize that my anger was misguided. As a white Jewish male from NYC who went to one of the schools on that 50 best list recently released I can assure that I do not benefit at all from any efforts to increase diversity in any shape or form.</p>
<p>The ex was accepted to a top 10 ranked Chicago med school (which shall remain nameless), but declined admissions because he didn’t like the school and didn’t want to attend school in Chicago. He also had very good personal/family reasons to remain instate. Reasons the state med school was fully aware of.</p>
<p>He subsequently was twice more rejected from the state med school (including once in the ED round) and is now a PhD candidate in medical nanoscience/nanotechnology.</p>
<p>Kal, DS was quite ***ed off with the holistic review method used by many med schools. I think this has something to do with his not taking MCAT test after completing the prep course - even when his last few practice scores were quite high. It took him almost a year before he was willing to take the test. It is likely because of this, he originally planned to apply to TMDSAS schools only. I could tell he spent more efforts on TMDSAS than AMCAS.</p>
<p>I think he has outgrown from this attitude since then.</p>
<p>BTW, DS told us he is willing to put in 9 hours of study a day for his upcoming STEP-1. Is it enough or below average? Some of his fellow students put in more hours.</p>
<p>WOWM - Why did the state school reject him twice or thrice? </p>
<p>Some Texas state schools reject someone like him because they know he won’t show up and might go to Baylor or Southwestern instead. If he had only one choice in state and that’s where he wanted to go…</p>
<p>MCAT - You should say 16 hours per day per experts!</p>
<p>Here’s an interview with assoc. dean of admissions for the new Quinnipiac U school of medicine, who talks about using holistic admission to shape their incoming class.</p>
<p>As to why the ex was rejected thrice…I don’t know for sure, but I have some personal conjectures.</p>
<p>Ex never attended any of his exit interviews so he didn’t ever learn what the school found lacking in his application. (And that in itself could have been a reason for his subsequent rejections…)</p>
<p>No possibility of being accepted to other in-state med schools—there aren’t any.</p>
<p>Texaspg, I will never put further pressure on DS by asking him to put in more hours.</p>
<p>I believe one of the CCers once posted that, in med school, it is often the case that those from state universities are capable of putting in more study hours. Some interationals in MD/PhD program may even do better in putting in more study hours.</p>
<p>We have two med schools in town. One of the students told me the summer was not all that bad because he was putting in only 90 hours a week working with a surgeon in summer after 1st year. I am going in what universe is 90 hours light and asked what it is during school year and he mentioned 110 hours.</p>
<p>Fwiw, he also told me his step 1 scores were competitive for any residency.</p>
<p>9 is below average. I typically did 12-14, I think you have to do 10-12 but that’s also counting some of your breaks during the day so if it’s 9 hours + breaks and stuff it’s probably right on par. It also depends on how many weeks you’re studying. More weeks obviously means fewer hours necessary. For example in my schedule I had at least half to a full day off per week because I was studying over 6/7 weeks.</p>
<p>I also agree that you shouldn’t say anything. He’ll figure it out after a few days.</p>
<p>I think his 9 hours exclude the break.
He managed to do reasonably well on MCAT without putting in too many hours, likely relying on his good standardized test skill,</p>
<p>But I heard MCAT is like a kid’s play as compared to STEP-1. The latter requires extensive study - this may be especially true if the students are from a med school where there is no grade for the first two years.</p>
I won’t respond anymore. I am just curious to see whether you would have felt the same way, if things got personal.</p>