<p>Jolynne,
What works better is to do the off-site in the a.m. It's also more practical from a site point of view, in addition to the pedagogy:</p>
<p>You prepare yourself in the a.m. for what will be discussed with age-mates in the p.m. You get a check (not just from Mom, but from those with expertise in the field) on the quality of your individual, independent study. (Some parents are more educated & capable than others, a point I already addressed; some parents are more capable of introducing subjects than others are; some students do need the subject introduced; this is particularly true when it comes to literary analysis, an area that is challenging if you don't know what you're doing.) You've done the reading. You arrive fresh enough to school & appreciative of the chance to interact with similarly educated peers, who have also had a chance to prepare. After site school, you can then do your sports or other activities with those peers.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that it still demands discipline, & dedication from the homeschooling parent to insist on the kid arising at the normal school hour to do such "home" work. Sometimes this actually requires the parent to read the same work that the student is reading, so that questions for content understanding can be asked. (i.e., Has the student done the "home" work, or not? Is he or she prepared for p.m. class?)</p>
<p>Thanks, alchemymom & epiphany, for those insights.</p>
<p>We actually did a 4 off/1 on-sight program w/my daughter w/a local homeschooling co-op 2 years ago (when she was 4). Similar set up as you described, alchemymom, but...just my impression but although the parents were hard-working & meant well---it just didn't seem that academic or intellectual, as a whole (w/some exceptions). Many, many parents had 5-7 kids in their families & seemed occupied by the day-to-day management. Although, my daughter was much younger than most so I didn't see it in detail. </p>
<p>We pay mondo taxes for a very high-performing school district w/super-involved parents. But I know (from my homeschooling readings & public school experience w/older son) how much even an excellent public school can be deficient in a variety of ways. I'd like to get the best of both, if possible...! :-)</p>
<p>"but although the parents were hard-working & meant well---it just didn't seem that academic or intellectual, as a whole "</p>
<p>^^And this is also one of the dangers & the realities of homeschooling. Quality control & preparation, as <em>well</em> as availability/freedom, are all essential.</p>
<p>Very true. The best homeschoolers I've met have been former educators. Ideally it's an opportunity to give more than regular school but in some cases it doesn't turn out that way.</p>
<p>"For awhile now, I have thought that the best form of education for many families (not all), is a hybrid one: site for part of the school day; independent study, or parent-guided study, or off-site study, for the rest of the day."</p>
<p>I wonder if there would be a niche for private schools designed to provide this kind of opportunity.</p>
<p>^^Hunt, this almost happened -- on a strictly one-classroom basis, not whole-school -- when my older D was in 7th gr at a Private. The school had hired an utter incompetent who had no clue what she was doing. Yet the class was very capable, & the parents were appropriately concerned. Things got so bad that there was a complete meltdown, with one of the outcomes a suggestion that we homeschool under the School's name for the rest of the school year, cooperatively as parents (all of whom were highly educated, & about a 1/4 of whom were educators by profession). We went so far as to design a curriculum & plan the 1/2 day arrangement, & then I think another teacher at the School stepped in & took over the class or something. This was a situation in which it was very doable & would not have come off amateurishly as I've seen many other attempts.</p>
<p>There are some private schools, some of which while not 'for the gifted,' gifted children do gravitate toward in slightly higher percentage. In those schools there is not a one-half/one-half, but OTOH the curriculum is individualized enough & partly student-driven from a highly functioning starting point, that some of the <em>objectives</em> of homeschooling are incorporated into the school by virtue of the population (& the professionals' understanding of student needs, preferences, & what will work).</p>
<p>There is a very interesting experiment going on in some areas that provides opportunities similar to those discussed. </p>
<p>These new schools are called "university model schools" and we have a few in our state. The idea is that just like a college, you sign up for the classes you want, one, two, all the way to a full load. To get a high school degree from that school, you must meet certain course requirements, just like a college. I think it's a great idea, though of course there are some management issues that are being worked through.</p>
<p>Private schools can be as rigid as public schools in their ideas of how students should be educated, whether they should be accelerated, grouped, and so forth.
At some point in S's schooling, we had a version of in-school homeschooling. Several middle schoolers were advanced in math, but to different degrees. They were allowed to sit separately from the rest of the class and to work from different books at their own pace without supervision from the teacher who focused on the rest of the class. Their parents had various ways of "teaching" them, from assigning problems and grading the problems themselves to hiring a tutor to do the same. Another form of "homeschooling" was to allow some students to go to the high school for some classes, or from the high school to the nearby college during the day. This last measure, which was informally applied several years ago, has now been formalized between the school and the college. This is on top of evening classes at same college to fulfill high school requirements. Other schools buy EPGY programs for students to use in school.</p>
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They were allowed to sit separately from the rest of the class and to work from different books at their own pace without supervision from the teacher who focused on the rest of the class........Another form of "homeschooling" was to allow some students to go to the high school for some classes, or from the high school to the nearby college during the day..... Other schools buy EPGY programs for students to use in school.
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LOL. My D's little podunk public school in Hooterville did all these things, too. They never made a big deal about it. The middle school principal (while driving D to the high school when the bus for her didn't come) told D he didn't mind at all. Paraphrased: "There are accomodations on the other end. I'll be danged if there's not going to be some place to put you, too." We had told them just to give her the teacher's copy of the book. We were pretty sure she could figure it out. ;) They were always real helpful, but had to stay within their financial limitations. I don't think they were trying to blaze any trails, just wanted to take care of what was right in front of them.</p>
<p>My gosh. My kids just didn't seem to need these sort of complicated arrangements. They were actually quite happy in public school until around 8th grade. Even then the public high school looked feasible to us because of an IB program but a scholarship to a local private hs was obviously going to provide smaller classes and a more uniformly college bound student body, so we sent them there. But I honestly don't recall ever feeling really stressed over my kids' schooling. They got good grades, always and often weren't challenged, but they enjoyed the school experience, usually liked their teachers, had friends, played sports and were involved with fine arts. It all seemed pretty good to us. We always exposed them to lots and lots of outside reading - a zillion magazines and newspapers and trips to the library and borders. But beyond that we didn't feel a huge need to supplement or enrich beyond the "gifted" (that horrid word again!) programs in our schools. And the high school they've attended has been amply challenging for them. Very, very rarely does a student graduate with an unweighted 4.0. My graduating senior has been very challenged, very stimulated.</p>
<p>I guess my kids just aren't on the far end of the IQ continuum as some of these on this thread appear to be. I think maybe I'm grateful for that. The challenges involved in educating such children seem to be quite considerable.</p>
<p>The teacher's version of the book would not have been enough for these kids. 7th graders doing math ranging from 8th grade to calculus. But at whatever level, some schools and teachers are willing/able to provide accommodation, others not. We've experienced the full gamut.</p>
<p>They do, of course. And that's what they used. But the teacher they had was not the teacher of the class who made it clear he could not supervise them as well as teach the other 20 students in the class. Their teacher was mom or dad or a hired tutor. Even the math whiz in our house could not teach himself calculus at 12. He needed guidance.</p>
<p>marite, I know that you know there are kids out there who don't need the teacher around daily to make sure they do the work or correct their tests. Kids that can learn material on their own from a book. Why is this such a hard concept today? I'd think many kids could do that with math one grade level ahead, don't you? I'd even think in your example , that you gave ;), that even kids 2 or 3 grade levels ahead could do it. I know that after my D took her first and last Epgy course she said she'd rather do it herself and did just fine the next semester with just the book (and a rare phone call to her mentor). But she's just a regular kid. Now your son's advancement in math? I have no idea , but your example wasn't limited to him. ;)</p>
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Even the math whiz in our house could not teach himself calculus at 12. He needed guidance.
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<p>Some kids do. Some kids don't. Richard Feynmann tells an amusing story of how he sequentially checked out all the books in the "algebra for the common man," "geometry for the common man," etc. sequence, and he got very excited when he heard there was going to be a "calculus for the common man" book in the series. He went to the desk to check it out as soon as it arrived at his library. The librarian stopped him and told him that the book was too hard for him and he would not be allowed to check it out. He lied and told them, "It's for my father," and they let him have it. (His father at that point knew much less math than he did and was in no position to guide him.) I don't think he got any adult guidance.</p>
<p>Anyway, the point is that some kids need guidance and direction and others do not. (And, in some cases, guidance can be counterproductive because kids have their own ideas about what they want to learn and the order in which they want to learn it. Some 12-year-olds might find calculus boring and be interested in doing higher level math, e.g., real analysis, before they do a standard calculus class. They may be much happier if left to their own devices.)</p>
<p>(I should hasten to note that how much guidance a kid needs is not necessarily correlated with how precocious s/he is. Some extremely precocious kids need a lot of guidance and some don't. Some typical kids need a lot of guidance and others not so much.)</p>
<p>I think the teacher would have been willing to deal with just one student; but there were 4 advanced students. And there were some in the class who were definitely struggling. Guess whom he thought needed him more?<br>
Sure the kids did not need to be supervised every day of the week. One kid had a tutor once a week, to assign problems, go over some concepts she had not quite understood and correct problems from the previous week. Even when a student understands the text, doing problems is crucial. My S is finding out the importance of this right now, this semester. :)
ETA: By guidance, I don't necessarily mean explanation. During the infamous heterogeneous era, S read several works of literature on his own. This was during the once-a-week enrichment period, during which the "teacher" graded homework for his other classes. But he needed feedback on the papers he wrote on these works. I was the one who provided it. Not every parent can do so.
And, as I said, not every teacher is willing to even let students work on their own in class. We have experience with such teachers, too.</p>
<p>"They were allowed to sit separately from the rest of the class and to work from different books at their own pace without supervision from the teacher who focused on the rest of the class."</p>
<p>^That is the version of 'gifted mainstreaming' which occurred in my youth. Again to note, however, that our classrooms (in my region) were about 8x more homogeneous than those of today, with zero true 'resource' kids in any mainstreamed classroom. That allowed the teacher to divide his or her attention in a more manageable way, without jeopardizing the learning of anyone.</p>
<p>"I guess my kids just aren't on the far end of the IQ continuum as some of these on this thread appear to be."<br>
^That's questionable.:) (And remember that gifted + h/schooling sometimes overlap, sometimes not; plenty of struggling, non-gifted students being h/schooled.)</p>
<p>I think one of the many reasons for the h-schooling movement, mammall, is the variability/inconsistency in both public & private schooling, within any given school, in many cases (not all). I survived some bad & some unhappy teachers in my youth, in a good public, as did my Ds, in a basically good private. But extreme changes in quality from one year to the next are difficult & disruptive; sounds as if your kids' experiences were more even. Alternatively, naturally, a consistently bad school will also drive parents to seek 'refuge.'</p>
<p>"Other schools buy EPGY programs for students to use in school."
^This is happening locally, as well. There was a news article about it recently. It's becoming more standard, & this is why I said long ago that h/schooling, unschooling, etc. has had an affect on institutional schooling & will continue to impact the evolution of formal education.</p>
<p>LOL. Is he finding the peddling a little tough? My D had her "moment of clarity" last semester. "Da(ng). This is HARD." Well....it's supposed to be hard. It's COLLEGE, dear. ;)</p>
<p>At my son's small rural middle school, he was the only student taking Algebra in 7th grade and Geometry in 8th grade. They offered to bus him to the high school (which he refused) and then they suggested that he just not take math for a year.</p>
<p>I was the one that suggested Independent Study. My son sat in a regular math class and taught himself Algebra/Geometry. The teacher was always there if my son had questions, but my son was able to do most of it on his own. Both teachers were amazed at how well this arangement worked out, but I agree, not all kids can learn this way.</p>
<p>I wish I'd known/learned about these various types of accomodations for accelerated kids when my son was young. As it was, he just sat in the most advanced math class (never taking notes) & getting As effortlessly. Of course, as mentioned, when the work got harder he wasn't used to having to actually work ("memorize 100 items in honors bio!") he didn't want to 'pedal' that bike at all. :-) He's since learned to do it. :-)</p>
<p>I think a lot of parents might feel bad that they didn't provide as many amazing educational experiences for their kids as are possible (as demonstrated, e.g., by the orginal article). After reading this thread I said to 16 yo son w/chagrin: "I wish I'd given you more opportunities!" He patted my arm & said, "You did the best you could." Pretty good from a 16 yo cool dude.</p>