Homeschooling is SUCH a JOKE!

Pre-College Issues Home Schooling and College
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<p>I'll second recommendations for Zumdahl's chemistry book and Brinkley's US history. We initially bought Enduring Vision, but my son decided after two chapters it wasn't worth reading. Brinkley's on-line material, the access code for which comes with new books, is also worthwhile. There's no need to look for a pristine Zumdahl with the CD, though, as the CD is worthless.</p>

<p>My son has a different viewpoint of <em>Lies My Teacher Told Me</em>. He terms it "Half-truths James Loelin wrote." I haven't read it, so can't take a position on either side.</p>

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<p>Loewen's book is a critique of standard high school texts. He takes what they say about an area, and then sees if the evidence backs it up. All of his critiques are heavily footnoted. I would be more inclined to accept something that has the evidence all laid out than something that doesn't. I believe he does say he isn't the final authority on anything and if people think he is wrong about something, he welcomes hearing about it. I would certainly be interested in hearing any critiques of Loewen, as in "where does he get the evidence wrong and how?"</p>

<p>A little book I ran across once that I thought was excellent, also with lots of footnotes -- Marks, The Origins of the Modern World. It was the best countering of Eurocentrism I could find. For what it's worth, I went through a number of European history texts and ended up with McKay, A History of Western Society (the second half -- I don't know if I would have liked the first!). But I also factored in a number of Teaching Company courses (generally the professors lecturing do reflect where the experts disagree -- which is Brinkley's strength as well), books of original sources, and the like.</p>

<p>Of course, I don't think there is any perfect source out there. I'm too persnickety. I've even had problems with TC courses which I think are generally excellent. It ended up that my daughter did a research paper assessing the different treatment of Justinian by different historians because the TC lecturer struck me as probably wrong. The exercise of doing this was probably more important in terms of critical thinking than in what she happened to learn about the guy.</p>

<p>We did history over a five year cycle because I didn't think world history could be done justice in one year. So I don't have one "world history" book. Lots of homeschoolers seem to use Spielvogel, I know.</p>

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<p>homeschooling is a joke... everyone that i know that was homeschooled is weird and anti-social</p>

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<p>Another troll to ignore</p>

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<p>Ah, but is he one of those short squatty ones with the sticking-straight-up purple hair? No wait, that was one of the public school students I saw the other day...</p>

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<p>Homeschooling is such a </p>

<p>wonderful freedom!</p>

<p>It appears some public schoolers need to learn to be more tolerant. Calling others names is not very respectful. Those who do are poor role models for public schoolers and gives them a bad reputation. Our country is based upon human rights and freedoms, and the freedom to homeschool is one of my favorites. Without it, my daughter would not be who she is today.</p>

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<p>i can understand if people choose to homeschool because their local public high school is very bad, dangerous, etc, but not when parents think that their child is "too good" to go to public school. and i've seen many homeschooled kids magically get perfect or near-perfect SAT scores. of course! they have a ton of extra time to prepare for the SAT! all this free time is an unfair advantage, i believe. public schoolers spend a huge portion of the day in school and get homework, which combined takes up basically all of their time, but this is necessary. kids need to interact with other kids in a classroom setting. they need to do history projects together and do chem labs together because these are vital learning experiences in working together as a team. and that's just part of my two cents.</p>

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<p>My daughter was homeschooled, and she often did history projects and chem labs with other students in her age group. However, there are many other ways to learn to be a good team player than to spend all your days with other people your same age. </p>

<p>I think it's unfair to school kids that they don't have "all this free time". Hence I allowed my daughter to homeschool. It was more important for her to become a self directed learner, than to fill her time with busy work.</p>

<p>The fact that homeschoolers often do remarkably well on their SAT's speaks for homeschooling not against it.</p>

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<p>but the only way to learn all about people your same age is to spend a lot of time with kids your age.<br>
public school does have both good and not-so-good aspects, but i think it's important to go through with it because it really is a great learning experience, not just with studying school subjects, but also with interacting with a ton of other people just like in the real world, and learning from an adult whose teaching style you must get used to (like in college).<br>
and yes, homeschoolers often have very high sat scores. like i said, they have way more free time to prepare for them, which i think is an unfair advantage, but i assume that college admissions officers know that.</p>

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<p>I would add to what Nan has said:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It isn't a matter of a child being "too good" for a particular educational setting. All parents select what they feel will be the best fit for their child and their entire family. Some select public schools, some private, some homeschooling. Sometimes, the choice is different for different children in the same family or changes over time. My daughter was in private school, then public, and then finally homeschooled. My son was in public school, then private. I think we made the best choices for them at the time and I see no reason to apologize for doing so.</p></li>
<li><p>Many homeschooled kids take outside courses, so they do get interaction. My daughter is in college now and has no difficulty in working with other students. Also, as Nan noted, there are other ways to learn about being part of a team. Homeschoolers avail themselves of them.</p></li>
<li><p>My experiences with group assignments in high school is that they are not a learning experience usually. Or rather, what you learn is that someone will do all the work and other people will sluff off. When my daughter was in school she complained about these things all the time. My son complained as well. If someone finds these projects educational, more power to him/her. But not everyone does.</p></li>
<li><p>I have not seen that homeschoolers prep more for standardized tests than anyone else. If they do better, it is because their education covers areas that traditional schools may gloss over, like memorization of math facts, knowledge of grammar and punctuation, etc., and because homeschoolers can address any individual weaknesses. It is no more "unfair" than students who happen to go to a better school or who have parents or tutors who help them out.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>I hate it when people start talking bad about homeschooling as if they know EXACTLY how it works. It just reminds me of how ignorant some people can really be. They really bring the meaning of ignorance to another level...</p>

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<p>
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learning from an adult whose teaching style you must get used to (like in college).

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<p>No, college professors teach nothing like your average public school teacher, something you will realize once you have actual experience in college. The former teach their subjects, relatively unburdened by the ideology promulgated in education courses. I sincerely doubt that there is a single literature professor who comes up with assignments like, "Build a board game based on your book." Or a history professor who, in an attempt to teach something about Roman mosaics, has his class spend an entire period cutting up little pieces of construction paper (which are then discarded because it is time to move on to something else come the next class period) ...</p>

<p>College professors complain about many high school graduates not having the skills they need to succeed in college. I have not seen a single article where any complain about unprepared homeschoolers. If there were any evidence that homeschoolers weren't prepared for college (or couldn't socialize or work with others, blah, blah, blah -- whatever the assertion in question), the NEA would be plastering all over the news.</p>

<p>The best preparation for college is to take actual college classes, work with college texts (much higher quality than secondary texts; see, etc., Ravitch, "The Language Police"), remediate any areas of weakness, watch lectures of college professors and take notes (e.g., with Teaching Company courses), and do lots of writing. Homeschoolers do all these things.</p>

<p>I am not saying that there aren't public and private high school students that aren't prepared for college. Many are. But this is nothing inherent in those schools themselves. How many parents help kids with their essays because there is no real writing instruction at the school? How many kids are tutored in one or more subjects, even in the "best," affluent school districts? (I live in one of them -- the extent of outside tutoring or supplemental teaching by parents is staggering. Before she was pulled out of public school, I was basically the one teaching my daughter whatever it was she was learning.) I think this is a function of the constructivist teaching styles you commonly find in those schools (and rarely, if at all, in college). For more, see Hirsch, "The Schools We Need and Why We Don't Have Them," or read up on the angst of parents and professional mathematicians when confronted with things like fuzzy math (<a href="http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com)%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.mathematicallycorrect.com)&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p>

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<p>Jogger, just one point, since others have addressed most of your points. You say it is important to interact with lots of kids your own age, so you can be prepared for life in the "real world."</p>

<p>Where in the real world do you spend your whole day exclusively with people your own age? Homeschoolers, in general, are more prepared for the real world because they have often spent time with people of a wide variety of ages, much more similar to what you will find when you begin a career.</p>

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<p>“i can understand if people choose to homeschool because their local public high school is very bad, dangerous, etc, but not when parents think that their child is "too good" to go to public school.”</p>

<p>JoggerBlue82: You understand homeschooling when parents think their children are too good for public schools that are “very bad, dangerous, etc.”. But you don't like it when parents think their kids are too good for “good” public schools. It seems you think everyone has the same idea of “good”, “very bad, dangerous, etc.” when we just do not. Schools in my area are supposed to be "very good." But I hear all the time that had I let my kids attend them, they would mostly likely get ridiculed or beat up because their interests are not typical of most blacks in the region.</p>

<p>For other parents, public schools aren’t "good" simply because they teach sex education devoid of religious morality. I may personally think these schools are “very good, etc.” exactly because they teach amoral sex education. The same kind of thing applies to evolution, the nature of the scientific method and a bunch of other stuff. I may completely disagree with anti-evolutionists, but c’mon man. This ain’t China. Don’t you think these folks should be free to be themselves and bring up their kids in the way they (not you or I) think best?</p>

<p>“and i've seen many homeschooled kids magically get perfect or near-perfect SAT scores.”</p>

<p>Well I don’t believe in “magic”. As far as I can see, those kids bust their tails every bit as much as public school students do. You don’t get a perfect score on the SAT just by waving your hands in the air.</p>

<p>“of course! they have a ton of extra time to prepare for the SAT! all this free time is an unfair advantage, i believe.”</p>

<p>My kids didn’t even prep at all for the SAT. I have eight kids. There ain’t no way you can have eight kids in the house, just sitting around all day prepping for the SAT. That is just a ridiculous notion, and anyone who even has a few kids knows what I am talking about. Kids have obligations they need to fill if the home is gonna work (unless they have a maid and private tutors and stuff – which we certainly don’t have). My daughter didn’t even prep for the SAT II until just recently. She didn’t prep because between working her job, doing her sports activities, serving in our church, tutoring and teaching a group of kids in our community, and doing all the other stuff she normally does around the house, in addition to doing her schoolwork, she just didn’t have much time. She did pretty well on these tests, but I’m thinking maybe we had her too busy and that we probably should have had her prepping a lot-- and a lot earlier.</p>

<p>But just think about what you are saying. Homeschoolers do as well as public schoolers in college and on the SATs. You are saying they do as well as public schoolers even though they spend a lot less time at it. And yet you still have a problem with homeschooling?</p>

<p>“public schoolers spend a huge portion of the day in school and get homework, which combined takes up basically all of their time, but this is necessary.”</p>

<p>It clearly isn’t necessary if homeschoolers can do just as well as public schoolers without sitting in a room all day. I am not saying homeschooling is superior to public schooling. I actually don’t think it is. I support the public schools because I think they are good solutions for what would be a really awful problem without them. But I don’t think the public schools are a perfect solution for everyone. So I respect all schooling solutions, just as long as they work for the people who use them. Don’t you think this is a more civilized approach to education?</p>

<p>“kids need to interact with other kids in a classroom setting. they need to do history projects together and do chem labs together because these are vital learning experiences in working together as a team. and that's just part of my two cents.”</p>

<p>Don’t you think kids also need to interact with their parents in a classroom setting too? I mean, can you imagine a kid doing drugs and getting involved with gangs after he has spent a life doing chem labs together with his own dad? And guess what? One of the main points of parenting is to raise kids to be responsible adults. Now tell me this. Which is most likely to turn a kid into a responsible adult, having the kid spend all day in a room filled with other kids, or having him spend all day with his parents and other adults and other kids throughout his community? C’mon now. You know the latter at least sounds more effective. I’m not saying it will be more effective for everyone, but you gotta admit that it at least sounds pretty powerful. Well, I’m telling you it has been really powerful in our case.</p>

<p>Homeschooling has its drawbacks. I mean, I feel really guilty sometimes because I wasn’t able to afford all the stuff my kids needed. For the longest time my kid’s Saxon math kept telling her to do such and such on a graphic calculator and she couldn’t do it because we just didn’t have the money to buy that kind of calculator. I mean, we just didn’t have it! So, she had to figure out a way to make do until she could save and buy one herself. That kind of thing still eats at me, but we still get the job done despite it.</p>

<p>But I still wouldn’t abandon homeschooling for the world. Where you just need to show up and do your chem lab, my kids have to first figure out how they are gonna get the stuff they need to do the labs. And if they can’t buy it, they have to figure out how they can borrow it or make it from scratch if possible. THEN they do their labs. After living like this all their lives, well, you know, they start feeling pretty resourceful. And when their SAT’s come back with huge numbers on them, they start feeling pretty good about their ability to get on in the world. You ought not try to take anything from these kids just because they are homeschooled. They deserve every honor they can get because they are really REALLY busting their rear ends every single day. </p>

<p>Homeschooling has its negatives, at least in our case it does - but the positives really outweigh all of them. If public school works for you, then I really am happy for you and I will still support the public schools. But if they don’t work, for whatever reason you think they don’t work, then I just don’t have the need to condemn your attempts to do the best thing you can for yourself.</p>

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It just reminds me of how ignorant some people can really be. They really bring the meaning of ignorance to another level...

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<p>CRbomber650- i believe that you are out of line here. i have the right to my opinion just as you have the right to yours. i am not "ignorant" thank you. i'm not saying i know EXACTLY how your schooling system works, just as no one else can say that they know EXACTLY how my schooling system works.</p>

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<p>JoggerBlue82-</p>

<p>As a homeschooler, everyone stereotypoes me and thinks I have time to sit around all day and prep for the SAT's. To be quite honest, I am very, very busy. I have time for only two activities at the moment (piano and clarinet), and I go to an occasional dance class if time permits. Schoolwork and my part-time job consume the rest of my time, both the weekdays and weekends. I did not prep much for the SAT; I went into the test pretty cold, yet my scores turned out good enough to be accepted to the three colleges to which I applied. </p>

<p>Yes, I do interact with people. Contrary to what some think, I am not locked in the house and I don't have my food pushed under the door. My friends are generally anywhere from two years younger to 50 years older than I am, so I have been exposed to people of all ages. Most of my friends are colleg or grad students, though. I am not stuck with a bunch of highschoolers all the time, like kids who attend "regular" schools are.</p>

<p>Homeschooling has worked for me. It has gotten me into an excellent university that I will be attending next year. It has let my interets, which have come and gone (and some that are still around) grow. It has exposed me to subjects you probably don't have offered at your school. It has helped me become an independant thinker and learner and a good citizen of the world.</p>

<p>Those are my two cents.</p>

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<p>Katharos: The thing is, do you not feel as if you missed out on things? I mean although high school kids are immature, having high school friends and being in high school are memorable experiences. Ie) Prom, cliche as it sounds; going to the movies after class; driving to get fast food during lunch breaks, etc. </p>

<p>All of the stuff you've mentioned: interesting subjects; interests; extracurriculars, etc. are offered at public high schools (and even private ones for that matter). (I've attended both public and private schools, and I prefer the public environment.)</p>

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<p>Not Katharos but ...</p>

<p>My daughter had a prom and went to movies. Doesn't like fast food (and it isn't good for you anyway). She was able to take up a sport once she began homeschooling because her nights were then free. Her public- and private-schooled friends at the club had to leave practices earlier than she and to use caffeine throughout the day to keep them going (their school starting at 7:30 in the morning, not 9:00). Once the timing of her day was clear to them, they usually indicated that, rather than my daughter missing out on anything, they wished they could be homeschooled because it sounded cool.</p>

<p>She took a number of classes that are not offered at public and private high schools. For instance, there were three in Egyptology, her long-time passion and current major.</p>

<p>She has told me that if she has children, she is definitely homeschooling them. She doesn't think she would have made it into the college she is in if she had stayed in public school. She was miserable in public school and happy at home. Why is it so important to try to say she must have missed out on something or there was something otherwise wrong about her experience? Try reading through all ten pages of this thread to see why I, for one, am fed up with it.</p>

<p>I don't see why people have such a problem with those who simply make different choices. Why do people keep seeking out the homeschooling board and posting criticisms in this rather offensively-titled thread? No one is talking about forcing people to homeschool who don't want to or even saying it is best for everyone.</p>

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<p>I just checked my daughter's high school transcript. Of the 31 courses she took (not including summer college courses), only 8 are offered at the local public high school. Those 8 we were able to customize by selecting the texts we thought best for her.</p>

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<p>Diane, that's an interesting way to look at it--which classes were offered and which were not... I just glanced through my dd's transcript and came up with these that were NOT offered at the local ps:</p>

<p>Lit of Tolkien
Brit Lit
Lifeguarding
WSI
Inorganic Chem
Fundamentals of Music
Intro to Music
Flight Instruction
Calculus (no, our high school no longer offers it and the ps is not welcome to take it at the college--too many failures)
Physics (believe it or not, our ps doesn't offer it!)
Fiber Arts
Environmental Design
Latin
Art & Architecture of Rome (in Rome)
Churchill and D-Day (in London, Paris and Normandy)
Cello
Piano
Orchestra (we only have band)
Master Gardener</p>