<p>In short, I think W&L is really a “love it or hate it” kind of place - and I hated it. Unless I was 95% positive my little sister, or friend, or whoever, was going to LOVE it - I wouldn’t send her/him there. This doesn’t go for all schools - I believe my Alma Mater is the kind of place where a lot of different types of people could be happy/comfortable - but it IS true at places like W&L, which are somewhat extreme.</p>
<p>As a parent of student who, apparently, is the type that should really dislike W&L according to comments in this thread, I can’t help but find some of the observations here misleading. I guess people either see what they want to see, or they see what they expect to see based on reputation and old sterotypes. </p>
<p>As far as I can tell, most well adjusted, socially outgoing students - whatever their interests or persuasion may be – do just fine at W&L provided they want to be at a small LAC in the first place. Most LACs are in small towns and rural areas, for example, so no surprise there. And all of these “too much alcohol,” “too southern,” “too greek” comments are way overplayed by our experience. I agree with an earlier comment that being over 80% greek suggests greater inclusiveness, not less. D mentioned how she felt the greek system at W&L goes out of its way to make sure that just about everyone who wants one, gets a bid. That doesn’t strike me as a terribly draconian outcome compared to most schools. </p>
<p>Also, given the actual geographic distribution of the student body (most students at W&L are not from the South), some of the conclusions being drawn are illogical. If it were true that W&L is best suited for only certain “types” they would not be able to maintain such high retention and graduation rates. When I walk across campus and talk with people I meet a wide spectrum of “types”, who all seem quite happy. They are from different places, different kinds of families, backgrounds, etc. What they have most in common is that they are friendly and intelligent. Why this would be a problem some people I have no idea.</p>
<p>I think both Custis and HereWeGo bring up some valid points. I think (like any school) W and L is not for everyone. I have to say though I STRONGLY disagree with some of the statements made. Custis-I’m not sure when you visited last or talked to current students or recent graduates, but I would say that the university has drastically changed in the last ten years and is continuing to do so with the implementation of the Johnson Scholarship and the strictness with fraternities. I think as stated earlier, people from the south probably feel more comfortable here, but geographic diversity is one of the best aspects of the school and people from CA to Seattle to NYC thrive on campus.</p>
<p>I think what HWG was implying and FLVADAD claims is true. Enjoying W and L is less about where you come from and what your political beliefs are and more about if you are an outgoing personality, open to experiencing different cultures (if you’re not from VA or the south), and prepared to be engaged in the classroom and outside of it.</p>
<p>Fauxnom-As someone who does not fall into a single one of W and L’s stereotypes other than I am reasonably intelligent, I can’t imagine if I went to a different school. I wanted something different from where all of my friends were going and that experience was invaluable. There is no better way to shape your belief system and form your own academic/political/life opinions than attentively listening to people who disagree with you and come from a variety of backgrounds. Does everyone feel this way? No. I’ll tell you though that the number of people who disliked W and L are in the minority.</p>
<p>^^</p>
<p>I’m sorry but 80% greek does not suggest inclusiveness. It suggests conformity and groupthink. It suggests a shortage of independent thinking students. But if that’s what the kids who go there want, more power to them. </p>
<p>I admit to being utterly mystified why anyone not from the South would choose to go to W and L when there are other equally selective Liberal Arts Colleges that are not operating in the past and not located in Dixie. I have to believe those few identify with or romanticize “Southern values.” Or they were bribed with generous financial aid. I fully understand why W and L would appeal to Southerners.</p>
<p>But that’s America. There is a place for every taste. Good luck to all.</p>
<p>With all due respect Plainsman, your phobias, biases, fears, paranoia, and troubled history with others have been well documented in your other threads on CC, so I understand the frame of reference from which you speak. Thus, I’d expect no other comments from you beyond what you have stated here. </p>
<p>But sadly, and truly, you really don’t have a clue of what you’re taking about. That sounds more insulting than I intend it to be, but you are passing judgement on some things here with which you clearly have no first hand knowledge.</p>
<p>I think one aspect of W&L that I’ve found to be true is that there IS diversity of thought. The school has been attracting a more diverse student body-whether geographically, politically, socioeconomically, or racially- in part thanks to the Johnson scholarship and financial aid. W&L has been stereotyped in the past as politically conservative, but the recent Mock Convention (for every presidential election, W&L students try to predict the nominee for the party out of office) for the Democratic Party showed how diverse politically the school is. To say that students have little to no independent thought is unfounded- I don’t believe that W&L would thrive to the extent it is now without students questioning previous ideas, their own and each others. </p>
<p>To respond to what others posted earlier:</p>
<p>Yes, Virginia is a Southern state, but I don’t consider myself a Southerner, and I have enjoyed my experience at W&L. I find no problem with the fact that students hold the doors open for each other, male or female, and acknowledge other students’ presence when walking by. Aside from location, I don’t feel that I have been transported back into the days of Lee, post Civil War, which seems to be what you are implying. Like I said above, the school is changing and students are coming from various backgrounds.</p>
<p>The Honor System is currently undergoing a transition- we’re staying with the Honor Code, but W&L students are more actively holding the elected student officials responsible. The last elections this year proved that students want more “transparency” in the elected officials- and recently forums have been started to discuss changes to the White Book. Students realize that there are problems on this campus, and we are seeking to add and reword passages in order to make the message clear in gray areas. The student body is holding the Executive Committee to higher standards this year than in past years from what I’ve seen.</p>
<p>I also want to address the Greek system/alcohol on campus.</p>
<p>I honestly didn’t really know that such a high percentage of students went Greek when I came to the school. I didn’t find fall term “informal rush” to be hard, I barely went on any rush dates, where sorority girls go out to lunch/movie with freshman to get to know them. Winter term came, I went through formal rush week, not knowing what to expect, and ended up joining a sorority in which I am very happy. I’ve made very close friends that I don’t believe I would have met otherwise- we would never have taken the same classes. I also stayed very close friends with some girls on my freshman hall that didn’t join a sorority. In fact, I’m living with them next year, and they don’t seem to be that bitter about the system. As for exclusivity, Panhellenic, which regulates the actions of sororities, makes sure that every girl who wants to join a sorority is able to. Yes people decide to drop out, and for guys I know it’s a bit different, but ultimately the students can decide whether they want to join a fraternity or sorority.</p>
<p>I think we forget that students decide for themselves whether they partake in the Greek system or not-just as they can decide if they want to drink or not. As someone said above, students drink here, but we also take responsibility as well. I’ve seen several people decide they want to go out, but they stay sober to either drive others or so they can go get work done after. I’ve done this, but you also have the opportunity to socialize with others. At the root of all of the parties and other nighttime activities, I think it’s the need for students to be social and interact- with or without alcohol. If W&L was just a party school, I don’t understand how students can get such great jobs right after graduation, or attend in high percentages their top choices for graduate school. It’s because W&L students know how to balance the social and the work.</p>
<p>I have no knowledge of W&L except what I have read here and other threads.</p>
<p>That said, if the honor system is as flawed as this thread made it out to be I find it frightening to give people such power over others lives. Young people in general do not yet have the life experience to realize that there are gray areas in every event. </p>
<p>I hate unfairness. I am glad to hear that some things are changing. I would not take the chance to allow my student to attend this school.</p>
<p>this reply is to a post on the last page, when someone stereotyped the entire south with groupthink when it comes to beliefs and practices. i’m from the south and while i will concede the fact that in some instance people can suffer from groupthink, but this doesnt apply only to the south. i for on am going to W&L but not because of it being a southern school, but because i liked the idea of the honor system and also the great programs it has in politics, business, and econ. also i am a white southern male who typically leans to the right when it comes to politics, but guess what, i am pro-choice, i am not against gay marriage, i’m not a racist. however, i do firmly believe in being a southern gentleman and i am staunchly conservative when it comes to fiscal policy. so you cant group us all into one thought process. when you do that it is just completely wrong, because you do not know everyone, you are just going on images and words that do not completely represent everyone.</p>
<p>Again, I will reiterate points I have made in this thread and others.</p>
<p>I am a liberal, atheist from the Midwest. There are many, many, many, people from the North. I would say out of my friends, most of them are from NJ, CT, NY, etc. It’s a mix of Dem, Repub, and couldn’t care less. I’m in a srat and love it, my roommate and another good friend are not, and they don’t seem to mind. Several very good friends don’t or didn’t drink. They still went out and had a good time. Also, after freshman year, you can live in apartments, which made it a lot easier to get away from the frat party scene if you wanted to.</p>
<p>If everyone keeps perpetuating the stereotypes, then of course they’ll become true, as anyone not Conservative, religious and southern become scared away from the school.</p>
<p>W&L is not perfect. But it is incredibly academically rigorous, and I believe firmly in the honor code (for instance, buying and selling furniture is pretty easy. I’ve actually had people stop by while I wasn’t in my apartment, take the furniture they wanted and leave me a blank check. Of course, in the real world I wouldn’t attempt that with a stranger, but it is incredibly refreshing to have that level of trust with someone I don’t know so well).</p>
<p>W&L isn’t for everyone. I really thought it wouldn’t be for me, and I almost didn’t come here, but it was for me, and I enjoyed my time here immensely.</p>
<p>to speak to the greek life aspect of this thread:
no college experience yet, but my impression is that the 80% greek would result in more inclusiveness, because the process is far less selective (last year almost everyone who wanted to be in a sorority was in one), and it is far less greek vs. non greek–greek competitions include almost everyone, and those who aren’t included, most likely can get involved if they want to, but are those who have already decided for themselves that
they didn’t want to take part. Furthermore, the fraternities and sororities didn’t seem to be all for the stereotypical frat boy or sorority sister type, but rather for those with a variety of personalities and interests. From what current students have told me, one’s involvement for those who pledge can vary from their main activity on campus to just something they do</p>
<p>from what I’ve heard, greek life at w&l is far more inclusive than it is at most colleges</p>
<p>in terms of diversity–I would say there is more politically at W&L than elsewhere. At most other top liberal arts colleges, there are 90%+ democrats, whereas W&L has a far more even ratio. The school has improved racially and socioeconomic diversity tremendously over the past couple of years through the Johnson program andother initiatives. Geographically, at the accepted students day, i met a few from virginia and north carolina, one from Louisiana, and one from West Virginia. Otherwise, I met people from only the northeast and west NJ (a lot of jersey), MA (though that’s where I’m from so perhaps that is why), California, Washington, Maryland, New York, and even one girl from hawaii. Though I had been concerned about this before visiting, it really did not seem to be a problem.</p>
<p>W&L students do come from areas outside the south, but the overall tone and culture of the school is overwhelmingly Southern. After four years most students will leave with yall permanently imprinted into their speech patterns. Theres nothing wrong with this of course. The point is that the most consistent groups of students, year after year, come from feeder schools in the areas mentioned previously. More importantly, students coming from elsewhere may be the only one from their high school or area at W&L, and should be aware of how the small size of the school and town may affect their experience.</p>
<p>Prospective male students should have several other issues on their radar. First and foremost, they need to find out EXACTLY what Fraternity Pledgeship entails at W&L. This is where students who have close friends or family members who attended before will have a big advantage, because most people are not going to tell you much about pledgeship. While it may be relatively benign at some fraternities, at others it will be exceedingly difficult and/or dangerous. There is really no way to know which is which. Generally, it will be more difficult at the Top 5 or so fraternities. </p>
<p>Furthermore, those who come to W&L solely for the great academics need to be aware that once pledgeship starts, your academic career may be jeopardized, and really for no good reason. This issue will be of much greater concern for scholarship students. For women, this doesnt seem to be as big of an issue. </p>
<p>As made clear in previous posts, most W&L students will join fraternities and sororities. This aspect of the school, however, MUST be sufficiently explained to prospective students, since it will shape their time there to such a high degree. (The financial cost of joining a fraternity/sorority should be explained as well).</p>
<p>The University is working on these and other issues. If they are no longer a problem, could someone please speak to that. If new policies have been put in place concerning fraternities/sororities, alcohol, and other student issues, could you please describe what they are, and how you would rate their effectiveness. Thank you!</p>
<p>This thread seems to represent the minority of students who believe that the Honor Code is flawed/ not executed properly. From personal experience, students have more freedom because of the Honor Code. Recently I bought some furniture from a student I didn’t know. He said he could drop it off after graduation to my house, since I would have left by that time. I said I would leave the check on the refridgerator, and I knew he would deposit the furniture, which he did. The Honor Code is also why I have so many take home exams, and why we have unproctored tests at the end of the semester.</p>
<p>From this thread, it sounds as if many students were asked to leave because of an Honor Code violation, which I haven’t seen. Decisions of certain cases, without the name of the student, are posted in our Commons building so that other students can see how many students are being tried and for what charges. The Executive Committee members are trained for their position, and they need explicit evidence before they can convict a student as guilty. Recently, I have not seen nor heard of any “gray area” cases that came up to the EC which they heard. </p>
<p>The Honor Code is one of the main reasons why I chose W&L- I could enjoy the freedom that comes with it, which I think students who are thinking about the school will see when they visit.</p>
<p>^^^ very well said.</p>
<p>was the originator of this thread the one caught in the honor code violation??</p>
<p>The OP’s departure was not in any way related to the Honor Code (that I know of). I believe she just did not like the school, and wanted to bring up some of the objections she had to it, so that other prospective students would know.</p>
<p>I also vehemently agree with W&Ler about the Honor Code. Although it does fail at times (there’s been a recent and disputed case about sexual assault, an area that the Honor Code is ambiguous on and should be revised), in general I find the Honor Code to be upheld at W&L. It is quite freeing to wake up on Tuesday of finals week and decide you’re not prepared for the test and decide to take it on Wednesday instead. I have sometimes decided at 1:30 whether or not I’m ready to take a final at 2. It’s also nice because if you’re so inclined (and I usually am), you can leave to go home on Tuesday or Wednesday of exam week (sometimes as early as Sunday or Monday), or you can stay all the way to the end of the week and have more time. Professors respect your integrity, and give exams and papers accordingly, which is great. </p>
<p>And, as mentioned previously, the Honor Code makes moving in and out of apartments so much easier, as you can leave doors unlocked and checks sitting out.</p>
<p>I’m not sure why the OP resurrected this thread, sounds like she has some remaining bitterness and she hasn’t been able to move on from her experience. Sad really.</p>
<p>But…I’ve loved reading the comments from CURRENT (and soon to be) students and parents. W&L is at the top of my d’s list and both she and I have been encouraged by so many things we’ve read here in the past few days. Take an exam a day later than planned? Yep, I could see her doing that. A diverse class but very strong academically, taught by professors who enjoy the geographically isolated lifestyle? Fits her to a “t”. So THANK YOU for your subsequent responses which have encouraged us so much.</p>
<p>Uhh - excuse me, HighlandMom… I’m sorry if you didn’t appreciate my comments in this thread, but I have every right to post them. You are quite wrong in calling me “bitter,” I have had a wonderful college experience, am employed right after graduating, and firmly believe that everything happens for a reason, and that going to W&L did serve a purpose for me. However, as someone who has been very involved in admissions departments (I was a tour guide at W&L, and worked in admissions at my subsequent college), I enjoy discussing my experiences with schools I have attended, toured, or researched. Just as there may be students who are ridiculously happy at their colleges of choice, and may paint an unrealistically perfect picture of that school, others like myself, have had not-so-good experiences in certain places - and I believe I am helping others make an informed decision by sharing those experiences. When it comes to applying to college, pretty much everything you see, hear, or read, will be positive. Pictures are airbrushed, discussions become soundbites, and tours may bypass the less-attractive parts of a campus; thus I think it is important to have a forum for the “devil’s advocate,” and that’s why CC is wonderful.</p>
<p>Sorry if that inconveniences you. Actually - I’m not ;-)</p>
<p>Count me among those who believe you’ve failed in your “purpose” in this thread HWG. It’s not a matter of inconvenience. It’s that your comments lack any real value other than being falsely controversial. </p>
<p>We picked up on this thread before D enrolled at W&L. I will admit that it gave us pause. I presume that was also your “purpose.” But instead of just letting it pass for fact we did some digging of our own. Basically, all we found is that there are two sides to every story - not just your side. Imagine that. </p>
<p>beautyistruth presents a pretty fair and balanced assessment of the honor code IMO. Nothing is perfect. But this thread is unnecessarily alarmist and adds very little substantive information in terms of what prospective students can realistically expect at W&L. I’m sorry it didn’t turn out to be such a great experience for you. It happens everywhere to someone I suppose, and for many different reasons, personal and otherwise. But frankly, we couldn’t be happier that we chose to ignore this thread. I hope others seriously interested in W&L will do so as well.</p>
<p>Well Said, FLVADAD.</p>
<p>We had similar concerns upon reading this thread, and upon investigation, also found that the alarmist comments were difficult to substantiate. As a result, we took what was of value in the hundreds of statements, and discarded the rest.</p>
<p>Frankly, the fact that the OP decided to come back and be all excited about the thread still being there, with more posts than any other, makes me believe that the OP is more interested in spreading her proclamations than in a dialogue. On other message boards, that means this would be considered a ‘VANITY’ post - in other words, 'Look at me!"</p>
<p>On the one hand, I am sorry to contribute to the thread, since it adds another post and keeps it at the top of the list.</p>
<p>However, if it helps folks to put this thread in perspective, then perhaps its worth it.</p>