Honors programs at big universities

Parents Forum
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<p>I’m not sure why everyone on this thread keeps wanting to drag it further and further off topic. I doubt anyone reading is really interested in this microanalysis of whether my particular high school is merely “above average” or indeed “elite”. </p>

<p>But since you persist, I looked up our 4-year graduation rates and they are 3-4% higher than our state average, which is listed around 89%. From the perspective of a school with 66% graduation rate, I don’t see how 89% is still average but 92-93% is somehow extraordinary.</p>

<p>You mentioned people trying to get their students into a different school. It’s worth noting that there are 5 area private schools of significant size I can think of offhand for which parents pay a lot of money, evidently in the belief that they are better than our “elite” public school.</p>

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<p>Seems that forum posters around here make a big deal about honors programs at big universities. There seems to be an exaggerated sense of quality in terms of how such honors programs are viewed, coupled with an exaggerated sense of disdain for the universities overall. An example is the high regard for the Barrett honors program at ASU, but the low regard for ASU overall, that seems to be prevalent around here.</p>

<p>What would be the reason for such viewpoints? Is it merely because people need to have a validation of one’s (or one’s kid’s) sense of worth in being admitted to a more selective entity (if not a more selective school, a more selective honors program at a less selective school), even though a student in the honors program will likely take a majority of his/her courses outside of the honors program?</p>

<p>To add to the OP. Barrett @ASU suffers many of the issues illustrated here, because ASU is so large at nearly 75,000 students, they had to create a small honors college in order to attract better scoring students. However Barrett has now grown to over 5,000 students in total, more than all LAC’s, thus partially defeating its objective. Case in point I think ASU now offers more NMSQT awards than any other university to attract better scoring students to ASU.</p>

<p>Couple of observations:-

  • Barrett students live in dorms next to hassayampa which is an open dorm for all.
  • Most students leave Barrett dorms after 2 years and often if they live in AZ live at home or in closeby apartments, like at most large state schools, ASU at its core is a commuter school with huge numbers of students commuting daily to class, like most state schools.
  • Barrett suffers from ASU’s reputation, all students if they graduate still get a degree from Arizona State
  • To ^^ASU’s graduation rate is now below 40%, although Barrett’s is much higher, they are still lumped in with ASU</p>

<p>Huge numbers of in-state students apply to Barrett, as a result almost 80% of students are AZ residents in Barrett with about 4% Intl, there is not a lot of diversity, perhaps I have heard less than at ASU as a whole.</p>

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<p>I know this has been said before, but it’s really up to the individual to determine if the honors college is worth it. Looks at the requirements, develop your academic goals, and decide whether the honors college will help you get their or not. </p>

<p>I must say I never questioned whether I should enter my university’s honors college. They gave me money and perks that made me choose them over regular admission to another university. My mindset going into it was that I was going to get the most bang for my buck. A year in, my choice has paid off so much already. I’ve made relationships with professors that I would not have made if I was in the honors college. I’ve made friends that I would not have met if I was not in the honors college. I’ve grown my roots in the honors college. The perks are worth it. The classes have been worth it. It was a great decision for me. </p>

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<p>I posted this over on the prep school parents forum, but it might be worth adding to the discussion here. Our son will graduate next year from a high school with 100% college matriculation and with a high school experience that is validating on its own and does not require further validation from a selective university. He is a dean’s list student in the upper portion of his class and would not feel diminished in any way by considering an honors college like Barrett. My own research into this gem has convinced me that the quality is not exaggerated and that the overall value package is outstanding.</p>

<p>The Barrett Honors college within ASU is truly a residential college, school-within-a-school, with its own nine-acre campus featuring private honors housing and dining. It features small class sizes and direct access to the brain trust of the larger university. The current dean comes from 28 years at Swarthmore and during his 11 years at Barrett has attempted, in his words, “to drop Swarthmore down into midst of the larger U.” Working with the architects of the new campus, he instituted the “house” system he enjoyed as an undergrad at Harvard and many campus features, like the amphitheatre, that he loved at Swarthmore. The refectory is modeled after a similar room at Oxford; the students refer to it as the “Harry Potter Room.” The campus is modern, high-tech, and also boasts several awards for best food (wood-fired brick oven pizza, vegetarian and vegan options that change daily, sushi, and other made-to-order foods).</p>

<p>Though ASU is the largest public university in the nation and probably no boarding school student’s top choice, Barrett is in a class of its own. It is among the top producers of U.S. Fulbright scholarships. Last year, Barrett students submitted 58 Fulbright applications for 23 awards, an astounding success rate, higher than Harvard, Brown, and Yale for that year. Internship and research opportunities are impressive as well. Students matriculate to the best grad schools.</p>

<p>I’ve had the opportunity to meet and spend time with the dean, and I can say that he is focused on bringing an ivy-like experience to this honors college. I really like how he describes admissions to the program. Though the school is certainly looking for top students, it is really interested in those “quirky” bright students ,the ones whose scores may not be what sets them apart. He says they are looking for evidence of intellectual rigor, and they often find it in students whose stats may be lopsided or overshadowed by something brighter in their application. For this reason, he says, Barrett’s profile of incoming students may not appear quite as impressive as the schools he considers Barrett’s peers, but the evidence of their good admissions choices is seen at the other end, in the number of national scholarships and matriculation to the best graduate programs.</p>

<p>This article from publicuniversityhonors.com does a good job of describing Barrett:</p>

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<p>I did not mean this to be an ad for Barrett, but to use it as an example of a very high quality honors program tucked within the largest public university in the country that should not be beneath the consideration of even the most elite high school students who are looking for the perks of a large research university with all of the benefits of a LAC.</p>

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<p>There seems to be little public information to support apples-to-apples comparisons of honors programs either with the rest of the same college or with programs at other schools. The Common Data Set information makes no distinction between honors and mainstream.</p>

<p>Having said that, if you’ve already chosen your college, and you happen to have access to an honors program, I don’t know why you wouldn’t want to take advantage of it.</p>

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<p>In some cases, an honors program may have additional requirements that are outside of the student’s main academic interests, but not offer much added value in the student’s main academic interests.</p>

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<p>Our ds chose an honors specialty program at a lower ranked university vs. a offers from several higher ranked schools, both public and private. He opted for this program from multiple reasons. First, it is small, only 40 students per yr. It individually matches students in the program with researchers in their chosen field for them to develop their own research project. The program funds the students’ research, provides them access to what they need to conduct it, and teaches them them the computer skills required for compiling, analyzing, and publishing their research. It is also a declared minor.</p>

<p>But, it also has fun perks. :slight_smile: The program has its own entire floor in the honors college. It has its own study rooms, lecture halls, and he would point out even its own 3d printer/scanner. :wink: I am not sure how many, but some of the students are also given additional scholarship $$.</p>

<p>In 2013, students participating in this program were selected as Hollings Scholars, Goldwater Scholars, a Mitchell Scholar, a Truman Scholar and a Rhodes Scholar finalist. </p>

<p>So, yep, our ds accepted full-ride scholarship honors over other higher ranked programs. He wanted 4 things out of his undergrad: solid education, research opportunities,a group of peers he could relate to, and not a lot of debt bc he is planning on grad school and post-doc. He knows what it is like to be around no one who can relate to what he is talking about. He also knows what it is like to be around top students who are energized thanks to wonderful camp experiences like SSP. He said that the kids he met at the finalist weekend (both finalists and upperclassmen) were every bit on par with kids he knew from camps. </p>

<p>Fwiw, he does not believe he “settled” at all. He is very enthusiastic about the opportunities. He did not think the research opportunities for undergrads at some of the top schools could match what he is offered through this program. And for him, a kid who loves research, this was a perfect match.</p>

<p>(I shouldn’t type before coffee. )</p>

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<p>We have no direct experience with honor colleges, but the parents I know whose kids went through the one at our local university seem only to talk about the perks, which while nice, don’t impress me as being as important as the classroom experience. They always mention the same sort of things 13thfloor does above: early or preferred registration, special dorms and better advising. We may send our youngest D there if need be, but in our opinion the value of the honors college cohort is not enough to counteract the effect of the hundreds upon hundreds of nice but average students who populate the rest of the university–kids who would never have even been tracked in the same high school classes as the students in the honors college. Differing levels of ability and motivation also impact student organizations, according to my friend, whose D was in the honors college. She said the state university’s clubs were of the same quality as our high school’s, which meant you had all the kids who never showed up or carried their fair share of the work load. As a whole, she was disappointed in her D’s experience. </p>

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<p>Honors colleges are as described. I think one factor to consider is if the college is a good fit for the student overall. The honors students are a fraction of the general population and students will interact with each other in many situations: non-honors classes, clubs, friends and so on. </p>

<p>So, as the GFC says, the perks are in addition to the entire college. Hopefully the student has considered this from the beginning, and so looked for colleges that meet his/her needs as best as possible. For instance, there are different state colleges to consider- some are liberal arts, some offer programs such as engineering, and so on- and the student can choose to apply to the ones that are the closest fit. </p>

<p>One of the benefits is sometimes affordability, and this carries more or less weight for a family. The student and family has to decide which decision is best for them. </p>

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<p>^^ Don’t be so quick to dismiss priority registration. It’s a perk at many (if not most) honors colleges, and it’s worth it’s weight in gold. Being able to arrange the schedule you want is huge. It also minimizes or eliminates the possibility of being shut out of needed classes. We hear stories of students forced to take extra time to graduate because they couldn’t take all their required courses in 4 years. Not an issue if you have priority registration. The honors freshmen are choosing their classes even before the regular seniors.</p>

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<p>I think you really have to do your homework on this topic–not all honors colleges are the same, and the description and the actual experience may not be the same. I think it would be a good idea to talk to some students who are in the honors program (or who have completed it) if possible. My daughter has several friends in a well-thought-of honors program at a large state university, and they aren’t crazy about it.</p>

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<p>Be careful when you ask current students, their responses might vary within the semester! :wink: </p>

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It is gold, indeed. My HC gives priority registration to their students. Due to it consisting mostly of pre-med students, the HC pre-med students are able to lock in their schedule to stay on target. This really helps them as sciences and their labs are in limited quantity and are high in demand. Personally, priority registration allowed me to stay on my schedule as I am ahead in my courses. Upper level engineering courses get high in demand and I am fortunate the I don’t have to pick from the scraps and keep on track. </p>

<p>I am fortunate and grateful that my university has a strong honors program. It doesn’t benefit everyone. Not everyone’s academic and personal goals line up with what they strive to develop within their students, but it helps a great selection of great students. The quality of students found in the honors college astounds me even. </p>

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<p>I would not be surprised if the students complaining about such things made their own errors in scheduling, like being too picky about time of day (e.g. “no classes before 11am”) or instructors, or changed their majors late, did not pay attention to prerequisite sequences when choosing their frosh/soph courses, or did not pay attention to which semester a required course not offered every semester is offered.</p>

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<p>Those students definitely do exist, but what also happens is that there may not be any Biology II labs left and the Biology II lecture MUST be taken with the lab, thus pushing your lined up classes back as you are out of sequence. What also happens is that Organic Chemistry I is full when the labs are open, but you HAVE to take them concurrently. What also happens is that classes just get full, and this puts you off a semester. Unfortunate things happen that cause students to be unknowingly behind. Mainly I’ve seen those students who do end up behind have to take an unplanned summer or increased course load for the next semester or two. Then there are those whose programs are put on a semester by semester basis and there is no room for scheduling problems. Fortunately, I’ve seen this only in graduate students or accelerated program people who have to wait the academic year to loop back around. </p>

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<p>The flip side is that elite schools will generally open an additional section of a core course or increase permissible enrollment if all sections are full, so that students might be far less likely to be closed out of classes required for a major than their counterparts at a public school. If students are closed out of a class, it is likely to be a popular elective class. </p>

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Welcome to the real world! Very few working adults enjoy the luxury of being surrounded only by the best and the brightest, so I guess the question is what the student wants from his or her college experience . . . four years of privilege (and there’s nothing wrong with that - after all, you earned your place in that elite college!) or four years of training for life outside the bubble. </p>

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<p>Am I the only poster who has had direct experience with both an honors college and an elite university? Each has its advantages and drawbacks over the years (mine have already graduated from their respective schools), and it can sometimes be hard to tell ahead of time whether one or the other will be (or would have been) the better fit for an individual student. </p>

<p>I think many parents and students agonize over the decision because it is difficult to impossible to transfer into elite schools on an undergrad level, but also difficult for an elite school student who has run into snags and is not in good standing to transfer to an honors college. And, a student who loses honors college standing after a bad semester or two will lose the honors college perks as well as any merit money.</p>

<p>Leaving academics aside, and wrt to cohort - </p>

<p>Honors colleges typically advertise themselves as combining the best of LAC’s and large research universities.</p>

<p>The honors college cohort is typically the size of a similar cohort at one of the most selective LAC’s. However, students in an honors college often self-select into a few majors. A student not in one of these majors could find themselves isolated from intellectual peers. </p>

<p>Unlike students at LAC’s, though, honors college students can also have ample contact with graduate students as well as with undergrads from the greater university, some of whom did not get into more selective schools (or the honors college) because they are lopsided, or are late bloomers, or had a weakness somewhere in their application, or who transferred from an elite school, or who somehow did not meet a holistic selection process for the honors college, but who can qualify for honors classes and give high stats students a run for their money in these classes. The larger school is also likely to enroll more mature students, including some elite school grads who are looking for a career change. </p>

<p>A student not in honors housing or in a major attractive to honors students, however, could find themselves putting lots of energy into finding companionship, or (in worst cases) avoiding hazing by less dedicated students. At many of these schools upper-classmen tend to live off campus whether or not they are in the honors college.</p>

<p>Fwiw, my honors college student did not seem to have problems finding campus organizations, although here again, honors college students did seem to self-select in these. </p>

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<p>As mentioned above, there are huge differences between honors programs in the colleges. There are also distinct differences between and honors program and an honors college (at some institutions). </p>

<p>What I found interesting is that the website linked by @sax focused primarily on the honors programs at schools that are already high academic schools. UT is a top 5 engineering school. The honors program may be good, but the base university education is good as well. I’d rather see how the ‘other’ honors programs compare versus some of the ‘elite’ LACs in terms of post-graduate success.</p>

<p>As someone who was frequently the victim of scheduling issues, I am very happy that S1 is going to a program where he gets priority registration. The dorm thing for him is good because he prefers to interact with kids who can carry on an intellectual discussion.</p>

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<p><a href=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwqnqL3Hbg”>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmwqnqL3Hbg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Here is the link again. The entire site is about honors colleges and will be updated in the fall.</p>

<p><a href=“http://publicuniversityhonors.com/sample-page/”>http://publicuniversityhonors.com/sample-page/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I found that finding the outcomes of prior honors students can be a great indicator of how well the program is regarded by both employers and graduate programs.</p>

<p>Most honors courses share this info on their websites. </p>

<p>The honors route worked well for my son. I have posted about it extensively the past. This kid is now 25. He is working in a group with people of all ages. He thinks they are all brilliant and laughingly says he would gladly do his job for free but won’t tell them that. Learning is life long and he knows it. </p>