<p>I think the premise that students from honors colleges self-select into only a few majors is a generalization. I would suspect that how an honors college functions, the supports in place and how they benefit the students would have more influence over remaining in the honors college than just major.</p>
<p>Some honors colleges have specialized programs within the honors college that appeal to a wide range of students pursuing very different career paths. UA has UFE which is geared toward leadership, CBHP which is geared toward research, STEM MBA which allows STEM majors to earn their MBA during a 5th yr, dept honors (varies by dept), etc. </p>
<p>The comment on the thousands of avg students populating the rest of the campus reminds me of an article on gifted students. It doesn’t state anything beyond the obvious, but sometimes simple reality can be missed.</p>
<p>I think the idea that only the students at the elite colleges have what it takes to achieve high levels of academic success is similar to the attitude expressed in that article.</p>
<p>All the hardworking, academically strong, future-changing individuals are not restricted to populating a small handful of elite colleges, especially when that education is not automatically funded but dependent on individual circumstances. A lot of them are at lower level state colleges shining where they were planted. And a lot of those future highly successful people may be in the general population on college campuses and not even in an honors college. ;)</p>
<p>My D. was in Honors at large public in-state. She did not share the same experience as stated by OP. She has chosen her UG because she felt that it matches her the best. 3 years later, while in Medical School and having experiences with graduates from the most top colleges in the nation, she still holds the same opinion about her college. She has applied to Honors originally because it was required to get accepted to the program that D. wanted to participate. This program had only 10 spots for incoming freshman. The Honors at D’s UG had 200 spots and great number of accepted to Honors were valedictorians from public but primarily from private HSs. The requirement was ACT=31+, top 2% of the HS class. Anyway, the Honors had create advantage of priority registration. This was the biggest for my D. (beside the fact that she got accepted to her program). She had couple minors and having to complete pre-med requirements on time is a challenge for everybody. Another big advantage is very small classes and great accessibility of prof. who know you by first name at the end. Also, many hard to get opportunities were easily available to my D. at her college (but not so at all outside of her college). It may also has to do with her being in Honors. Overall, I believe that these 200 in Honors were treated as royalty there, not mentionning the fact that most (all?) were on full tuition+ Merit award.<br>
D. had to drop her sport though, did not have enough time. Her sport had nothing to do with her acceptance to Honors, she had no plans participating in Varsity any way, she had tried club and it did not work out for her. She was seeked out by several college coaches, being in sport from the age of 5 all the way thru graduating from HS. But she knew that choosing pre-med, she would have great time limitations and she wanted to pursue other interests at college also.
D. had great experiences and memories if her UG and Honors was just a small part of it. The most important, she her UG has prepared her for her future very well, no only academically but also in the area of personal growth. </p>
<p>Just wanted to say that when Englishman talks about the huge 75,000 ASU population, he never mentions that this includes 10,000 online-only students, 13,000 graduate students, and that there are 3 smaller campuses in addition to Tempe whose students are included in this total. I’m having a hard time sorting out the actual numbers, as there is much duplication in the totals but anyway, yes ASU is big, but not quite as huge as Englishman’s assertions imply.</p>
<p>My son is in an honors program at an OOS public. It has given him exactly what he wanted, which was the full university experience of rah rah D1 major sports (as a fan), and Organic Chemistry in a class of 15, which the professor ran in a way that is impossible in a large lecture format. His 95% grade for the class was due, in part, to the intimate nature and structure of the class. For him, the honors program does combine the best of both worlds.</p>
<p>I have heard great things about some honors programs. However, both of my kids applied to, got in to, and ultimately chose against honors programs at big state U’s, in favor of private more “elite” schools. Why?</p>
<p>It was different for each child. For one child, it came down to having more like-minded peers and not feeling, once again, like part of a smaller circle of “nerdy kids” among a larger group of partiers like in high school. </p>
<p>For the other, it was about the quality of the education, since most of the classes would not be in the honors college, especially in a subject like engineering, which has a similar trajectory regardless of whether you are in honors or not.</p>
<p>For BOTH of them, it came down to finances. I cannot emphasize enough that IT COST LESS TO SEND THEM TO SELECTIVE PRIVATE SCHOOLS than to both an in-state and OOS university. The assumption that private schools cost more is for those who do not have financial need. For those who do, big U’s may not be worth it.</p>
<p>^ True to an extent. Those with the most financial need can have a lower net cost at some privates. However it’s not a blanket rule. Most privates that claim to meet full need (their definition, not yours) will do so with loans. Since you chose to shout with caps, I will say LOANS ARE NOT AID. Loans are just kicking the can down the road, making it easier to pay their bill. You still pay that cost, plus interest. Aid will also usually include work study, which is a job. That’s going to take hours away from studying or other interests. That might be an issue for some kids. If you are lucky enough to get into an Ivy or one of the handful of privates that don’t use loans for aid, that’s great. Overall it’s a pretty small number of students in that club. Bottom line, run the net price calculators for all the schools you are considering and look at the details. Then apply to some of the generous privates, cross your fingers, and look at the true cost of the aid package if you’re fortunate enough to get a big envelope.</p>
<p>There’s a certain cache to attending an elite LAC, but that doesn’t necessarily make it the best choice, even for the student with full need met and no loans. If the cost at Big U Honors College isn’t significantly more, there may be some very real academic advantages, including access to classes at the university’s graduate and professional schools. And for a kid coming in with significant AP credit, it may even be possible to get a B.A. and an M.A. in the same four years that it would have taken just to get a B.A. at the elite college. For the kid who wants to hit the ground running after graduating from college, Big U Honors College may be a far better choice.</p>
<p>Our price was around 50%-60% less than sticker price at all the private schools where ds was accepted, but our EFC still existed. Our EFC is way more than we can afford. “meeting need” is not always low cost.</p>
<p>And as dodgersmom pointed out, he was able to transfer in all of his credits which opens up triple majoring.</p>
<p>Honors Colleges are different than Honors Programs. Flagship U’s vary in eliteness from state to state. Not too long ago I checked on various Honors colleges and programs. They vary so much in offerings. Some isolate the students in specific housing and have a junky list of Honors survey courses to choose from the first two years with nothing after that. A student chooses Honors for the courses, not validation as suggested in a post.</p>
<p>UW-Madison has had an Honors Program since before my time. They added more to it in son’s day such as a lot of online extras they couldn’t do in those pre-internet days of my schooling (UW had comp sci- even its own department and building since the 1960’s). They decided not to segregate Honors students in housing- a good thing as there is too much diversity among top students to think they would want the same dorm setting.</p>
<p>UW is one of the upper echelon public flagships (I would argue that Michigan is no better, but that’s another topic). Honors students are so diverse I can’t imagine them being housed together- even my fellow Honors Chemistry women friends and I chose different areas of campus for housing. Being in the Honors Program at UW means being eligible for Honors courses, Honors discussion sections of courses and doing extra to get Honors credit in others. One can enter/leave at will- no hassles. However, to meet the requirements for an Honors degree (and UW dropped magna, summa, cum laude distinctions eons ago) you need enough Honors credits with a B or better and a thesis or grad level courses (for Chemistry lab work in a grad lab setting with a thesis- a top 10 grad chemistry school, for son math grad courses in a around top 15 for math grad school setting) you need to start early enough to finish in 4 years. Hard core versions of math, chemistry, physics and biology (organic chem required) sequences for sciences and others for liberal arts also. At UW you take the Honors courses because you want the extra material et al, not for prestige.</p>
<p>Given the numbers of undergrads- eg with around 6000 entering freshmen at UW- there is a core of Honors student numbers likely equivalent to many upper level private schools’ total freshman enrollment. A large public U is many groups of students, not one cohort. Depending on the field of study/major a student could be at a better U than some elite U’s (eg Harvard for computer science or engineering fields).</p>
<p>People have mentioned ASU’s Honors College. But- unlike UW, the rest of the university may not be as good or the student body have as good credentials as at UW. This is why the specific school matters as much as how they approach Honors. At some schools Honors courses disappear after the general ed courses. So many variables. same thing with Ivy League schools- not all offer all majors.</p>
<p>Costs matter. It is not worth going into significant debt for one college instead of another with similar academic possibilities. Choosing some public U’s Honors colleges/programs because they give merit money instead of others- you may get what you pay for. UW doesn’t need to offer money to attract enough top students.</p>
<p>I don’t think you get a “better” education at any honors college at a big university, but you can get a smaller college experience and sometimes better housing and priority registration. The education is there for all enrolled students to “get” if they want it. </p>
<p>I taught as an adjunct at a medium size, medium (being generous) prestige, private university last fall. I taught a small, evening class. There was one kid in my class who had on his signature line that he was in the Honors College of the school. He was certainly among my top students in the class–clearly bright and motivated. But there he was, in the same class as the other kids, some of whom were way less qualified, and way less motivated. He got an A, no question, but I wonder what he was really getting out of the “Honors College” experience. </p>
<p>What I am getting from my honors college is a better education than what I would have gotten if I stayed with the engineering department’s flow chart. It’s provided me a balanced education that I otherwise wouldn’t have dabbled in. For that, I am grateful. Although I do feel as if I’m being pulled in all directions, my honors classes have helped push forward my emotional development, my outlook on the world, and cultural perspective. </p>
<p>I’m an engineering student and I almost feel it’s even more important for engineering students to be involved in programs like this because some engineering department push their core work so hard and leave no room for development outside of “practicalities”. </p>
<p>The small college experience while also having a large college experience has really helped me. I’m able to sort of get “lost in the masses” and meet numerous amounts of people and then get back to that specialized niche of people when needed. </p>
<p>The small class sizes is one thing that I really appreciate. I never thought that I would have some of the talks that I had with my professors and classmates when coming into college. When you have 15 people in a classroom, your professor is able to step back more and become more personalized with work. </p>
<p>I know this is all anecdotal, but this is my experience. My university has a phenomenal program with honest and compassionate professors, advisors, and staff. It’s shown through the programs available and the students that come out of the program. </p>
<p>I really wouldn’t consider this a great selling point considering everyone I know who is a hiring manager or HR person in STEM would regard an MBA without much/any post-college work experience with great skepticism at best and sometimes possible concerns the fresh young MBA holder expects to start out in a higher level position even though he/she has little/no working experience as most his/her fresh BA/BS only grad counterparts. </p>
<p>In most cases, an MBA only becomes an added plus if it comes after the holder has taken a break of 2 or more years in the workforce before going off to an MBA program. </p>
<p>Moreover, not all MBA programs are created equal and there are plenty of MBAs…especially from non-elite schools who are underemployed or unemployed in this economy. </p>
<p>Also, in some quarters of the tech industry, having an MBA…even a STEM oriented one isn’t going to impress employers as much as having a BS and/or a reasonably rigorous MS in a STEM field. </p>
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<p>As with the MBA, not all MA/MS programs are created equal. </p>
<p>While those from some colleges’/programs are impressive and will allow you to hit the ground running in a few professions, many others don’t really add much…especially if there’s little/no relevant work experience behind it or one’s entering a field where the pedigree of one’s degree/alumni social networks matter much more. </p>
<p>@cobrat I know nothing about the STEM MBA program other than my ds was invited to join. It is not something that interested him. The program that made him decide on UA was CBHP.</p>
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<p>And regardless of whether or not CC posters view it as a “selling point,” obviously there are top organizations that do. “In 2013, the CBHP had students selected as Hollings Scholars,Goldwater Scholars, a Mitchell Scholar, a Truman Scholar and a Rhodes Scholar finalist.” So, while there are students listed from Princeton, Johns Hopkins, MIT, etc, among winners,so are students from UA. </p>
<p>While I do not begin to equate UA with MIT or Princeton, the quality of education students are receiving is still excellent. And considering our ds is attending on full scholarship, saving us $100,000 in EFC, both he and we are thrilled with the opportunities he has at UA. Since the point of the thread was are honors colleges/programs a good alternative, obviously for some students they have been. </p>
<p>As with all college choices, whether or not an honors program is the best option depends on the student. For student A, who knows she wants to pursue a career in business, a BA from a well known (read "prestigious”) college, followed by a few years of employment, followed by an MBA, may be the way to go. For Student B, whose goal in life is to develop innovative technology, an engineering degree, combined with Alabama’s STEM Path to MBA program, might be ideal, since he needs the MBA not to impress employers, but to have the know-how to eventually develop and market his own technology.</p>
<p>A student should absolutely say “no” to the honors college option if its isn’t going to get her where she wants to go. But to reject this path, as was suggested earlier, because it means having to mingle with the “unwashed masses” . . . well, I still think that’s a lousy reason to turn down what might otherwise be an excellent opportunity.</p>
<p>My ds was accepted into three different Honors Colleges at Big State U’s. Two (one being our in-state flagship) were strictly based on grades/test scores, and the third was based on those criteria plus an additional application which required essays, a resume’, etc. That one only accepts 320 students per year and that school also offered an additional program/cohort for his desired major. Because of additional competitive scholarships, two of the three would have been full-rides covering the entire COA. The only one that made his short list of three was the one that was application-based and also offered the cohort (OOS and full COA). His other two short-list schools were a top-20 with pretty significant merit and a top 5 with no money (because we do not qualify for need-based aid). He chose the full-pay, top 5. I really don’t blame him, though I had some slight remorse that he didn’t choose the top-20 with merit. We used the Honors Programs as safeties for him. None of those three universities are highly ranked. I agree with the point that not all Honors Programs are created equally, and I do tend to look to the ranking/perception of the university as a whole when forming <em>my</em> opinion. That may or may not be a fair way to do it. But as another said, the diploma is going ot have the same name of the university. Do I think he could have had a good experience at the Honors College at any of those three institutions? Probably. But I think he is going to have a once-in-a-lifetime experiece where he is going. The diversity, location, and, yes, branding will be signicantly better. Everyone has to make his/her own decision based on his/her circumstances. There is not one “right” answer, and there is not one “right” path. However, I do think the general tendency is to try to justify the choice, whatever it is. Antecdotal evidence will always cut both ways.</p>
We used the Honors Programs as safeties for him. None of those three universities are highly ranked. I agree with the point that not all Honors Programs are created equally, and I do tend to look to the ranking/perception of the university as a whole when forming <em>my</em> opinion. That may or may not be a fair way to do it. But as another said, the diploma is going ot have the same name of the university. Do I think he could have had a good experience at the Honors College at any of those three institutions? Probably. But I think he is going to have a once-in-a-lifetime experiece where he is going. The diversity, location, and, yes, branding will be signicantly better. Everyone has to make his/her own decision based on his/her circumstances. There is not one “right” answer, and there is not one “right” path. However, I do think the general tendency is to try to justify the choice, whatever it is. Antecdotal evidence will always cut both ways.</p>