Hopefully helpful advice to California parents

<p>
[quote]
You know, the thing here is that we're not discussing whether a kid gets into college or not, or gets to attend UC or not. This entire discussion really revolves around which UC our kids get into. For the students being discussed who don't get into Cal or UCLA or UCSD, it's likely that they'll be accepted into UCSB, Irvine, Davis, UCSC, Riverside or Merced. I can't speak for Merced, as it's new, but they'll get a 1st class education at any of the rest.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This year, UC Santa Cruz had 24,000 applications for something like 3200 spots. So it's no longer a "safety" among the UC campuses, by any means. (I know longer ago, it was.) The only campuses taking apps after the original UC deadline were Riverside and Merced - so those two appear to be safeties.</p>

<p>I've posted this on other forums but seems relevant to this thread. </p>

<p>What I've posted here is the text to a press release announcing the publication of the HOUT REPORT, a new report on freshman admissions (May, 2005). If you click on the link below and then scroll to the bottom of the page, you will find a link to the full report online.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/05/16_hout.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/05/16_hout.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<hr>

<p>UC Berkeley releases new report on freshman admissions</p>

<p>By Marie Felde and Janet Gilmore, Media Relations | 16 May 2005</p>

<p>BERKELEY – A new study that offers an in-depth quantitative analysis of the University of California, Berkeley, freshman admissions process confirms that the process is working as intended with academic considerations carrying the most weight in virtually all admissions decisions.</p>

<p>The report, which was released to the public today (Monday, May 16), was conducted by UC Berkeley sociology professor Michael Hout at the request of campus officials. Hout is a world leader in the use of innovative quantitative methods to study the sociological and demographic changes that have taken place in the United States.</p>

<p>While there have been several quantitative analyses in the last few years of the campus's freshman admission process, this new study provides the most comprehensive assessment of the factors that play a role in admissions decisions.</p>

<p>Hout reviewed a sample of almost 8,000 applications that includes not only the standard data clearly noted in admissions documents - grades, SAT scores, coursework and information about individual high schools - but also 59 additional factors considered by the professional evaluators, referred to as "readers," when assessing all of the information in the admissions packet. Such factors were not previously considered in prior quantitative analyses of comprehensive review. They include matters such as leadership roles in major organizations, hours worked each week, and the strength of the student's academic program his or her senior year.</p>

<p>UC Berkeley officials commissioned the study in early 2004 to provide an assessment of comprehensive review. Under that process, readers consider not only grades, test scores and coursework in assessing student applications but also personal traits such as leadership and the challenges and opportunities students encountered during their high school careers. The assessment was done in response to questions about the admissions process raised by UC Regent John Moores.</p>

<p>In his report, Hout wrote, "My statistical results reveal that comprehensive review conformed to most aspects of policy guidelines. Academic considerations predominated. Readers gave applicants' grades the most weight in assigning read scores. They also considered how difficult the courses were and scores on SATs. Readers also fulfilled the policy guidelines that instruct them to consider applicants in their local context by giving some weight (less than the weight they gave to academics) to the barriers to achievement that some applicants face."</p>

<p>UC Berkeley officials had asked Hout to assess how the campus's comprehensive review process for freshman admissions was operating, with a special focus on estimating whether outcomes at any stage of the process were correlated with ethnic identity when all other available information was taken into account. The study analyses the admissions process in place for high school applicants seeking freshman admission to the campus for the 2004-05 academic year.</p>

<p>His report found the following:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Readers gave applicants' grades the most weight in assigning read scores. They also considered how difficult the courses were and scores on SATs.</p></li>
<li><p>Ethnic identity had almost no correlation with scores that readers gave to applications.</p></li>
<li><p>Difficult to quantify aspects of comprehensive review - such as judgments about applicants' leadership potential and character - do matter in admissions decisions, but they do not correlate with ethnic identity.</p></li>
<li><p>Eighty-nine percent of decisions were determined entirely by the scores that professional readers gave each student applicant after considering all of the information in their application packets. Eleven percent of applicants were given additional review.</p></li>
<li><p>The probability of an application being referred for augmented review was slightly higher for African American, Chicano/Latino and Native American applicants compared to applicants who were similar in other respects. However, during the actual augmented review process of assessing and scoring applicants, there was no correlation between ethnic identity and read scores.</p></li>
<li><p>When scores were identical and a tie-breaking process was needed, African Americans were had a higher probability of being admitted when all other things were equal. But the statistical advantage of African Americans was so small that it would have been eliminated if six fewer black students had been admitted.</p></li>
<li><p>Hout's only recommendation concerned the 11 percent of admissions decisions made through tie-breaking and augmented review. He recommended that guidelines for tie breaking and referral to augmented review be more explicit. UC Berkeley's faculty committee on admissions responded to those concerns and added greater specificity in those areas.</p></li>
</ul>

<p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/05/16_hout.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/05/16_hout.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So are you saying that the special considerations such as poverty and family size have no real role in admissions? Then why not just drop these factors in the UC admissions process? I realize that race cannot be taken into consideration in the UC admissions system anymore. So all things then being equal, how is the disparity in graduation rates in many state universities explained? Aren't they a concern if there is a significant drop-out or transfer rate for blacks, and how does this factor into admissions? I assume the spots that are left after the dropping out or transferring are happily taken by transfers from other places including CCs, but what about these kids who leave, could their lack of success at UCLA or Berkeley have been predicted during the admissions process? This would hold true for all ethnic groups.</p>

<p>I believe that it is wonderful to give someone a chance who is from less than optimal circumstances to succeed, but I have seen and heard the aftermath of those who fail to make the grade in college, and it is very sad, even cases of suicide because they feel they are letting everyone down.</p>

<p>Kluge- Yes, both non-UC approved and UC approved. For example UC doesn't count the frosh honors English, ( or any frosh classes of course), but it was a really, really tough class.</p>

<p>Totaly agree w/ your other statements and I have to say that , for whatever reason, my child ended-up in the right place
( happy and thriving). </p>

<p>I am glad that pamavision noted some kids with the same experience, and socaligirl had a similar finding, though, because I really think it might help someone in planning their HS program.</p>

<p>I have no doubt that the vast majority of kids in the top schools absolutely deserve to be there, and for those that got a little bump up due to the fact that they had a really hard time w/ their family situation, then I am really glad that there was a way to reward them for their hard work during tough times.</p>

<p>I just wanted to help clue in parents of future applicants to some of the
issues involved. Maybe it will help them get into their dream UC or something ( or save them if they mistakenly think they absolutely HAVE to overload themselves to get in). </p>

<p>If you balance your courseload and don't go overboard with the APs, your GPA will likely be higher and this MAY help your application.
( exception of course, are the very few kids who can take all honors and APs , no 'regular' classes, and still get ALL As).</p>

<p>If you have a hardship, difficult family situation, etc, you should consider sharing that info in your application. It may help tip the scales in your favor. </p>

<p>And of course these issues really apply to the kids who are on the border of in or out. Naturally, if your a so-so applicant this won't help,
and if you are a great applicant , you don't need the boost!</p>

<p>hideandseek:</p>

<p>Parental income and occupation are requested on the app. Also, readers can assume low income if a student attends a HS that has a 90+% free lunch program.</p>

<p>avwh:</p>

<p>last year, Santa Cruz accepts over 16,000 students since its yeild is so low (less than 19%)...with a ~70% acceptance rate (down from 90% a few years ago), UCSC is getting more selective, but remains a safety for many kids.</p>

<p>collegialmom: the Hout report does not say anything about special considerations, bcos they are already factored into the reader's directives when they read apps. (The Hout report was conducted in response to Moore's earlier report. Moore's report indicated than xx kids (who were supposed to be *********s -- 5's from both readers), were rejected by the admissions committee in facor of other, lower stat applicants).</p>

<p>hahaha -- I guess the editor didn't like my word -- I'll add a hyphen: auto-admit.</p>

<p>Whatever, this is far to complicated for me, I'm glad my kids didn't have to worry about this system. How do out-of-staters fare, are there different criteria? It is hard to second guess a system like this, is all of this is writing somewhere, like the U-Michigan point system was before it was thrown out by the courts?</p>

<p>Yes all of it is in writing in excruciating detail on the Pathways site at <a href="http://www.ucop.edu/pathways/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucop.edu/pathways/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You can pull up the exact critiria for each and every campus, plus past admission data and stats analyzed from every possible angle. </p>

<p>Plus there are a variety of free workshops offered to Calif. students to help with essay writing and application prep.</p>

<p>It is not at all difficult to figure out for California residents. I'm sorry to see the financial cutbacks at the UC system in recent years, but I still think that California has the most comprehensive system possible, and one that (except for the money part) is geared to make higher education accessible to everyone.</p>

<p>I can't imagine any thing that the UC system could do to improve on the information that they already provide. They also are very, very clear that they are looking primarily at GPA + test scores.</p>

<p>anothercollegemom: it's definitely a lot easier taking the regular classes. I am taking reg. brit. lit, span. IV, physics, finite math, and currently getting 99% (A+) in all of them... maybe spend 3-4 hrs a week on hmwk. Most of my time is spent on AP Gov. Our AP classes have about a min. of 2 hrs of homework a night per AP, so you can imagine when you have four, it's hard to keep up.</p>

<p>calmom:</p>

<p>one small addition to post #49 -- the UC's look at UC-gpa, which includes bonus points for UC-approved honors/AP courses, a-g courses only, and for 90% of kids, grades 10 & 11 only.</p>

<p>first, elc is capped because i emailed the ppl and they said that although i was number 10 in the class of 760 in a very competitive school i didn't qualify for elc (which is ranked based on uc gpa). i dunno if she was just saying stuff or she knew what she was talking about since i thought that the schools rank and send in the names. anyway... point is</p>

<p>2-3 aps, get A's a few B's (1 or even 2)
do a lil student council
community service
get a good uc gpa
and ur in</p>

<p>ridiculous. i know. cuz ive been the college acceptance guru since 8th grade and i had big big misunderstandings. i took an unbelievable hard schedule took a billion (k more like 10-12) college classes throughout my high school career (and middle school!) and failed big time on the uc capped gpa (3.8something-3.9)</p>

<p>also, forget doig anything outstanding aka joining an academic decathlon team which takes up 7-8 hours of ur time A DAY. i did that and once again, failed. they dont give a ****...it all comes down to gpa, sat (i dunno not really from what ive seen) and gpa</p>

<p>we had 20 ppl get in from our school. my friend (who's ranked 4th) didnt get in cuz she didn't have much EC's. once again, lack of EC's can definitely hurt you...but an abundance of them... i doubt help much</p>

<p>ELC GPA is uncapped. From the UCOP website:
[quote]
The ELC program awards a bonus point for UC-certified honors courses. UC-approved honors courses are underlined and are marked with a yellow star on the high school's Doorways course list. All honors courses are used in calculating the GPA (in other words, the ELC program uses a weighted, uncapped GPA).

[/quote]
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<p>nya:</p>

<p>The UC's re-rank all students under their own formula: a-g courses only on a HS transcript (test scores may be used if a HS adds them to all transcripts, but most HS do not). The UC's do not use the high school's ranking, which may include PE, health, driver's ed, and the like. </p>

<p>The person who responded to your e-mail must've confused UC-gpa for admissions eligibility (which is capped) under the statwide context (includes SAT scores), and UC-gpa for eligibility under the local context (ELC purposes), which is not capped.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.ucop.edu/sas/elc/requirementsinfo.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ucop.edu/sas/elc/requirementsinfo.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>From the Office of the President of the University of California (note last word):</p>

<p>"Honors Points</p>

<p>The ELC program awards a bonus point for UC-certified honors courses. UC-approved honors courses are underlined and are marked with a yellow star on the high school's Doorways course list. All honors courses are used in calculating the GPA (in other words, the ELC program uses a weighted, uncapped."</p>

<p>Calmom: No disagreement, I think UC does a great job of providing info to assist prospective students and parents. I also think overall it is a spectacular educational system. ( On that note...all the stuff you hear about undergraduate 'cons' of the UCs hasn't held true in our experience so far. My D's professors and TAs know her by name and she has been able to easily meet w/ them and they personally e-mail all the time ).</p>

<p>However, I wish advisors at our college advising meetings at the HS would have stressed the fact that UC only gives 4 courses worth of weighted credit ,so if you couldn't pull out all As in all the other AP classes, you would have a lower GPA come admission time than kids in regular classes and ,despite having a challenging courseload, your lower GPA could adversely affect admission. Honestly, I should have asked more questions & thought it out better, but the message that came blaring out to us was you can't be competitive with 'regular' classes, so take all the honors/APs that you can. "It's better to get a B in an honors class than an A in a regular class".
I wish they added " But at admission time, once you've hit your 4 course weighted limit, it is actually better to have an A in a regular class. The honors B just brings you down. " Overall GPA ,however you come by it, counts more than overall tough courseload. </p>

<p>ELC gets you 300 points in the comprehensive review for UCSD. You get the same amt of pts for having a low income.</p>

<p>I accidentally ran across this article which I think sheds a lot of light into the discussion:</p>

<p>UC Berkeley News: Profiles of freshmen with SATs 1000 or below may illuminate admissions process
<a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/23_admissions.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/23_admissions.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The article contains 41 descriptions of freshman who were admitted to Berkeley for the 2002-2003 academic year, with lower SAT scores, particularly highlighting their accomplishments in the context of their life experience and the schools they attended.</p>

<p>From UCLA's website....19 honors/AP/IB courses. Including Frosh year, (although the UC's rarely give honors status to a frosh course), those "average" matriculant to UCLA took nearly 5 honors/AP courses each and every year. Moreover, foreign languages are typically not honors until year 4 or AP, the average matriculant took a full load of honors/Ap courses, and earned an average of 4.25 w. Taking college prep courses when your HS offers honors and AP will not endear the applicant to the adcoms at Cal and LA. Of course, the other UC's are much less selective.</p>

<p>This was the information that got UC Regent Moore all upset and then caused UC Berkeley to commission the Hout Report (look at my posting above). Very likely these are the kind of applicants who get tagged for "augmented review." They are a very small subset of applicants and even then not all who undergo augmented review are admitted.</p>

<p>Bluebayou - I think that's 19 semesters, not year long courses.
Anothercollegemom - You're right. If the goal is to maximize your attractiveness to UC I think that strategy is sound. There are other issues as well. At our school there's usually an "advanced" course which is a prerequisite for honors or AP classes, which is harder, but not weighted. Also, our local school grades more strictly than the average public high school (you can tell this from CSU statistics.) None of those things are factored into the UC review.<br>
UC policies tend to work against my kids, who excel on SATs but do only "pretty well" with grades. But it's actually OK with me. I figure they'll spend their college years at the schools that all the other bright underachievers get into as well, and move on from there.</p>