These things might be true for Chicago magnet schools; I wouldn’t know. They are not true for the NYC exam schools, where students in the high-middle down to the bottom are not able to take the most rigorous courses offered and have dozens to hundreds of higher-ranked classmates applying to the same colleges. 40-60+% of the kids end up in CUNYs/SUNYs/nonselectives, and it isn’t all because of finances and an absence of hooks.
At a private school, GPAs are deflated and flattened to create a far narrower range; the rigor on everyone’s transcript is approximately the same; and the college counseling office is curating and orchestrating to make sure the whole class does well.
I have no idea how you could make an apples-to-apples comparison of kids applying to midwestern colleges from Chicago magnets vs. NYC privates, but for the record: for a few years now UChicago has been Horace Mann’s most frequently attended college (and most of those were in RD), and 18% of the class of 21 went to UChicago, WUSTL, Northwestern, or Michigan. Is there a Chicago magnet where 1 in 5 graduates go to those colleges?
But does the bottom half of the school at horace mann and riverdale go to those schools also? Both of those schools start at kindergarten and must have kids who are not able to do that level of work. The magnet schools of NYC have kids of excellent academic potential in the bottom half of their class who qualify for free lunch and regardless of their scores could never attend ivy league/top 50 schools for reasons beyond what you are implying. Even the unhooked kids at those two highly expensive, highly selective schools have much more going for them than the average kid at a NYC magnet school
To answer OPs question I think that last year was an anomaly. Our public suburban NYC public school had crazy results (very good) But my brother’s kids suburban NYC public school had crazy results in the other direction. I know parents at HM who were concerned about results as were parents at Columbia Grammar and RIverdale. Lack of testing and colleges making decisions based on unknown criteria made trending difficult. Choose the school that fits your child and your personality better. They are very different environments.
As a father who has had a public school student gain admittance into an Ivy, and currently have two private school students at a prestigous Westchester private school I will say this… Where is your child happier attending? Does he or she like the school, the “vibe”, the other students? Go there.
DO NOT LOOK AT MATRICULATION stats, for the many many reasons listed by others here. Also because you’re also talking six years down the road, when the college application process is 100% going to be different than the environment that exists today. We’ve gone from our private school possessing great relationships with colleges to now almost being blacklisted because of our “prestige”. We’ve gone from long time AOs shunning our schools to the new ones embracing them. You simply do not know.
What you can know is the environment that your child would be most likely to shine in. As a parent who has gone through this (and is currently with a 12th grader), I can say that making decisions at this juncture based on what you believe the most prestigious college acceptance might be is the absolute worst decision you can be making for that child. Happiness and fit first, even if that happiness and fit is the child’s and not the parent’s ability to share the school their child attends within their friend circles.
Hi, college freshman who attended a NYC private school here. Definitely go where your child thinks they will fit in, be happy, and thrive. A lot of what has been said on this thread is accurate. Riv and HM have some of the most privileged and connected student bodies in the country, and this is the driving reason for why they frequently get a lot of their kids into Ivys/T10s. This might come as a shock, but Riverdale and Horace Mann actually have very little to do with their Ivy League acceptances. Instead, they have the their student’s tremendous financial resources and social connections accredit for their success. That being said, both schools provide a world-class high school education with top notch facilities, and that is what your money is buying. But if you think that investing in one of these schools will guarantee your child a spot at a top college, you’re simply wrong. The only exception I can think of to what I just said is the HM’s strong relationship with UChicago. They send 10+ kids there a year (and even 15-20+ some years), so it would be naïve to say that HM doesn’t actually have any pull with UChicago. But lot’s of HM kids want to go to UChi though, and many DON’T get in. Some would also argue that Riverdale has a good relationship with UPenn, this is debatable because so many families throw crazy amounts of $$$ at UPenn, Lol.
BTW, from what I’ve heard, Riv will offer a better work-life balance than HM. I’ve also only heard positive things about Riv, so I would personally pick it.
To illustrate my point, I went back thru my files and found the scattergrams from my son’s graduating high school class (2018). Here is the naviance scattergram for a well known Ivy league school. Each year roughly 15 students from each graduating class would matriculate at this particular ivy. When I saw that statistic in the college placement lists, I was ecstatic. Sounds like a lot right?
But once you look at the scattergram you’ll see that more than half of those who are accepted fall below the ‘threshold’ for GPA and SAT. The dashed line depicts the average. So while there are some students at the upper outer range (high GPA and high scores), there are many who are accepted well below that. These are the students who are probably legacy, donor, facbrat, URM, athlete, etc.
This just means that if your kid is unhooked, the best chance is to kill it in terms of GPA/Test scores. If they fall out of the range, then it becomes very very difficult.
Lawrenceville uses Naviance? We only have access to SCOIR…
And yeah, based off our SCOIR (i.e. from more recently), the scattergrams are similar for the tip-top colleges. Take this one for one popular Ivy League (not HYP):
Lville used Naviance in 2018. I know that many schools switched to SCOIR in recent years. I’ve used both systems and they provide similar functionality. The SCOIR plots are a bit nicer though.
That is a given and the only controllable variable (to an extent). My intent is to provide the best springboard for my child - beyond that personal effort and talent (and luck) has to do the heavy lifting.
I know unhooked kids at both schools. There is really no difference. They all work hard and have excellent experiences. Choose the one your kid would enjoy. They are very very different experiences.
“My intent is to provide the best springboard for my child - beyond that personal effort and talent (and luck) has to do the heavy lifting.”
This is a truth for most parents and kids at these schools. Personal effort and talent abounds. It is necessary but not sufficient and won’t set a kid apart at these schools.
The secret sauce is when a kid is in an environment that plays to their strengths (eg for a kid that doesn’t like working in groups and strives for independence and one on one competition v one that loathes competing against friends). I’ve seen it - when the school culture matches a kid, the academic results and personal growth are astonishing. But when a kid is unhappy at school and a fish out of water, the results can be not so good - no matter how hard they work.
If you have a choice between two excellent schools, pick based on school culture and what fits your kid. The rest will take care of itself.
I’ll also add that matriculation stats for anything prior to the last year or two are 100% irrelevant. Literally irrelevant. Three things have occurred- USC, a universal march towards equity, and the pandemic. All of those have put a stranglehold on historically affluent and “prestigous” private schools.
For the first time, Penn did not release legacy ED stats. Our GC has told students from our Westchester private school (one who was 36 ACT, double legacy, field hockey captain and recruited by D3, and who won regional poetry contests the last two years…not to mention her grandfather literally built a lab on campus a few years ago) that got deferred that it seems they are purposefully going out of their way to punish legacy- at least in ED.
The landscape has changed, is changing, and will change. Never, ever, ever, ever make a schooling decision for a 6th grader based on college matriculation stats. As a parent who believes very much in the education two of my children were and have been provided by a great private school, the prudent decision is still probably to sock away the $ spent on private school, send the kid to public and have them achieve wonderfully, and then simply give them that $ upon graduation as they build their career.
The only caveat is since we don’t know where OP lives, if their child is a NYC public school student the flux in the system may make this a different balance between public and private school. If OP can afford it or is getting aid, avoiding the crazy system twice in the next three years may worth the money, but again we are veering away from OPs question.
100%. For example, I have access to a tremendous local school system but chose private for the personal attention and touch. But sent one to public because it was the right fit. Fully agree that there are situations where the experience and the education is overwhelmingly better.
Btw, this is purely anecdotal, but our D has camp friends at Dalton. They’re all going to “elites”- got in ED. But each of them is HEAVILY hooked.
Once again, this thread is NOT meant to be a referendum on public v private high schools (feel free to start a new thread if you want to have that discussion).
Please stick to the OP’s question of Riverdale v Horace Mann on this thread.
That is not a decision we are making. I went to a non-Ivy and had the toughest time landing a Wall Street career. I like to think hard work and talent finally got me here, but I know luck played a large part. Comparatively, the targeted Ivys and Ivy-likes still are feeder programs to the top employers. I am trying to de-risk child’s future as much as possible. Maybe they get to same place navigating private vs public, but even if private helps at the margin, their lifetime achievement/ earnings/ happiness will be worth multiple of the $ spent now.
Sounds like you are in an excellent position to give your child all of the advantages. You are definitely over thinking the details. You cant make a wrong decision in terms of outcome, both schools will set them up for a wonderful college experience. You and your child should find their “home” for the next 7 years. Good luck!!!
Another way to look at this is “will either of these schools prevent my kid from getting into a tippy top?” If you see kids matriculating to schools you like, it doesn’t mean that your kid will necessarily be set up (as has been said a million times before.) But it does mean that those colleges believe this school adequately prepares students for their programs.
My counsel is to pick the school where your kid can thrive and be the best possible version of himself. He will be a better applicant coming from one school than from another simply because of who it has allowed him to be.
It’s also really important not to lose sight of how critical these years are. They aren’t an extended admissions test – they are a time of transformation, learning, friendship, etc. Try to see them for that and you’ll pick right!
