<p>asians have been immigrating to america for over 150 years, as Phatalbert said. I think it's a cultural thing. Asians are taught to work harder, they're not smarter than any other race, they just try harder. If asians chose to apply themselves to sports they'd be good at that to, but thats not priority for them.</p>
<p>phat albert, i didnt say all asians and i didnt claim for them to be a homogeneous group.</p>
<p>however, if you snoop around, many (i say many, not even most or all) asians kids here are in fact second generation</p>
<p>Yes it's certainly true that many are second generation, and many are the children of immigrants who came here for education.</p>
<p>I'm just saying that too often many is confused for all, and everyone gets swept up into one group and people who don't belong in that group are judged by those standards.</p>
<p>Well, so much for debate because can we change anything? No. People will remain biased according to their beliefs. Unless, we suddenly get a revolution promoting rights to minority ethnic groups, things will not change soon, no matter what we say. Maybe in the future when ethnic minority groups have established themselves into the country will there be more equality but I don't see it in the near future. This might have sounded pessimistic but it's the truth.</p>
<p>it's almost indisputable that yes, we are disadvantaged in the college admissions process itself because we are grossly over-represented in the college population in porportion to the national population and that it is a self-selected group which makes it so that to stand out, one needs to outshine the other bright stars. However, the generalization which is true to an extent is that Asian kids, at least a fair percentage of them, are privileged in their lifestyles and their environment. Though your parents have never paid for anyone to train you or school you, what about all the asians who go to the best schools because their parents can afford estate in the best school districts? or the asians who have the money to support their kids through years of lessons and tutelage to become the master pianist/violinist they are now? or the asians who have the money and means to support their kids in their other extra-curricular endeavors in club sports or arts and whatnot? and despite your own experience, the asian population geared towards higher education have taken at the very least SAT classes if not had private tutors. This is a generalization that Asians do have an advantage but I do not believe it is completely unfounded. There are way too many threads on CC about being asian and complaining about it. Why don't we just all calm down and meditate, pray to our ancestors for college admissions help, memorize Confucian teaching so we can more vigorously live them out in our un-advantaged poor-us lives while other kids pick vegetables =D</p>
<p>
[quote]
Well, so much for debate because can we change anything? No. People will remain biased according to their beliefs. Unless, we suddenly get a revolution promoting rights to minority ethnic groups, things will not change soon, no matter what we say. Maybe in the future when ethnic minority groups have established themselves into the country will there be more equality but I don't see it in the near future. This might have sounded pessimistic but it's the truth.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The revolution is now. There may be ballot initiatives in up to five states next November dealing with abolition of racial preferences.</p>
<p>These initiatives have successfully passed in California (55/45), Washington (59/41), and Michigan (58/42), despite extremely well-funded advertising from the defenders of the status quo. What’s more, these are “blue” states, states where the residents are supposed to be all for “diversity.” Well, the thing is, they are for real diversity; they just aren’t for racial preferences.</p>
<p>^^ so what happens after they eliminate AA...You get into Harvard??</p>
<p>brokenw1ngs,</p>
<p>Asian countries have the highest personal savings rates in the world. It’s not surprising to me that “the Asians” you speak of are able to do the things you described. When you don’t buy $150 shoes every year and eschew the latest fashions for less expensive substitutes, affording real estate in the best school districts, supporting extracurriculars, and taking SAT classes becomes a lot easier. It’s all about opportunity cost. To some people, the latest Nikes aren’t expensive, but a $15 SAT review book is exorbitant. To others, the reverse is true.</p>
<p>One of three things will happen when racial preferences are eliminated.</p>
<ol>
<li> The enrollment of [insert race here] will increase.</li>
<li> The enrollment of [insert same race here] will stay constant.</li>
<li> The enrollment of […] will decrease.</li>
</ol>
<p>As an opponent of racial preferences, I’m fine with any of those outcomes, regardless of the race.</p>
<p>Supporters, however, are picky. They like #1, but only if the race is “under-represented.” They like #3, but only if the race is Asian. And, if it’s #2, they’d rather have their racial preferences.</p>
<p>So, does that mean all Asians will get into Harvard under race-blind admissions? No way! There are many competitive non-Asian students in this country.</p>
<p>"Blacks have the highest crimes rates in the world. It’s not surprising to me that “the Blacks” you speak of are able to do the things you described. When you don’t buy $150 SAT Classes every year and eschew studying for less time consuming substitutes, affording guns and crack, stealing, and killing becomes a lot easier. It’s all about opportunity cost. To some people, a $15 SAT review book aren't expensive, but the latest Nikes are exorbitant. To others, the reverse is true."</p>
<p>Just because the stereotypes you apply with such a broad brush are generally 'positive' doesn't make it okay.</p>
<p>And how is passing a ballot initiative banning affirmative action in favor of real diversity? What real diversity is that going to create? Those ballot initiatives are driven by angry white and asian students, crying because they didn't get into their first choice schools and blaming what they see as unqualified URM students.</p>
<p>Well guess what, life isn't fair, college admissions aren't fair, so deal with it. College's don't admit solely on academic merit, if they did they would just take students in order of descending SAT score and GPA. They don't. They're trying to build diverse and successful freshman classes, and part of that diversity is racial diversity, because they care about students having a good experience after admitted. And part of that college experience should be interacting with people of all races and all backgrounds from all over the world, not just with the people with the best grades.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The idea is that Asian culture (especially the culture of recent immigrants) highly values education and achievement, and promotes a strong work ethic. This is and has been true of other immigrant groups. My observation is that there is a lot of truth to it, although it doesn't really have anything to do with how "smart" you are.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>However, this is not necessarily true of immigrants of all Asian nationalities – those from SE Asia (Laotians, Hmong, etc.) generally don’t have the same attitude due to the fact that there generally weren’t such educational opportunities in their homeland.</p>
<p>Generally, Asian-Americans are actually disadvantaged when it comes to the admissions process since they often end up competing against each other. </p>
<p>The stereotype that Asians are all “math grinds” doesn’t help either – otoh, the same type of stereotype doesn’t seem to hurt black immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean (who are actually heavily recruited by the top schools).</p>
<p>
[quote]
that has nothing to do with work ethic...yes music requires practice...but so does any other sport...one could say why is the sports of (boxing, football, and gymnastics, etc) generally composed of every race but Asians...i mean if anything, these sports require and insane amount of work ethic and dedication.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Uhh, Japan, Korea and China have some of the top gymnastic teams in the world.</p>
<p>Plus, 2 members of the US Men’s National team are Asian-American, Kevin Tan and Sho Nakamori (along with 2 members of the US Men’s Jr. National team).</p>
<p>And here’s a partial list of Asian-Americans who have played collegiate and/or professional football.</p>
<p>Eugene Amano (Center/Guard – Titans)
Andy Avalos (LB – Boise St.)
Keith Ah Soon (OL – Hawaii)
Peter Kim (Kicker – Alabama)
Nuvraj Bassi (DL – Oregon)
Johnny Chan (DE – Navy)
Brian Chiu (OL – Uwash, Montreal)
Robert Chai (Center – UCLA)
Timmy Chang (QB – Hawaii, Hamilton)
Brian Choi (Guard – Montana State)
Michael Chou (QB – Cal Poly)
Eugene Chung (OL - VA Tech/Patriots)
Herman Ching (RB – Oregon)
Kaipo-Noa Kaheaku-Enhada (QB – Navy)
Cheng Ho (RB – Harvard)
Reggie Ho (Kicker – ND)
James Hong (OL- Univ. of Houston)
Kyu Lee (WR – UoWash)
Joe Maningo (LB – UCLA)
Michael Miyashiro (WR – Hawaii)
Haruki Nakamura (Safety – Cincinatti)
Dat Nguyen (LB – Texas A&M, Dallas)
Coesen Ngwun (DT – Harvard)
Matthew Ngwun (DT - UC-Davis)
Scott Phaydavong (RB – Drake)
Chad Sagon (DB – San Diego St.)
Ashley Subingsubing (LB – UHouston)
John Takamura (LB – Harvard)
Brandon Ting (CB – USC)
Ryan Ting (CB – USC)
Marc Villafuerte (RT – UCLA)
Francis Wai (QB – UCLA)
Ed Wang (TE/DE – VA Tech)
Riki Yoshinaga (CB – Harvard)</p>
<p>
[quote]
They're trying to build diverse and successful freshman classes, and part of that diversity is racial diversity, because they care about students having a good experience after admitted. And part of that college experience should be interacting with people of all races and all backgrounds from all over the world, not just with the people with the best grades.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If that's the case - why don't the top colleges accept more Asians from SE Asia or Pacific Islanders who often don't have top scores like their NE or South Asian counterparts?</p>
<p>Plus, if diversity is so important - why do Jewish students make up as high as 30% of students at some Ivy League colleges?</p>
<p>PhatAlbert,</p>
<p>I’m not aware of using any stereotypes. Please list the ones you think I used. The only group I mentioned in my post was “the Asians” that brokenw1ngs described. I mentioned no other group. You chose to associate a race with my post. I did not make any association. It is you who applied a stereotype, not me.</p>
<p>Real diversity is the understanding that everybody is unique. As long as everyone has a chance to be admitted, that is, there is no de jure discrimination like Jim Crow, then the resulting class is automatically diverse.</p>
<p>You accuse me of using stereotypes, yet you claim that “those ballot initiatives are driven by angry white and asian students, crying because they didn't get into their first choice schools and blaming what they see as unqualified URM students” (emphasis mine). Simply because you think that is the “truth” does not negate that it is a stereotype.</p>
<p>I was accepted to all the universities on my list. I chose the one I liked the most, and I’m very happy with my choice. I oppose racial preferences because I believe that the way to stop discrimination on the basis of the race is to stop discriminating on the basis of raace.</p>
<p>Ah, yes, the famous, “[X] isn’t fair, so deal with it,” statement from the status quo defenders. You know, not too long ago, people were saying the same thing about… segregation. Thank God that brave Americans kept fighting to end that shameful practice.</p>
<p>Who said colleges do “admit solely on academic merit”? Can you find that statement in any of my posts? I didn’t think so. My advocacy for race-blind admissions does not translate to support for numbers-only admission; race-blind does not equal numbers-only. “Don’t consider race” and “only consider numerical stats” are quite different from each other. Yet, for some strange reason, the status quo defenders just can’t see that.</p>
<p>I believe that “interacting with people of all races and all backgrounds from all over the world” can occur under race-blind admissions. If the world went according to the status quo defenders’ worst nightmares, Berkeley would be racially homogeneous. Is it? Of course not.</p>
<p>@fabrizio
If you didn't see stereotypes in what you wrote about asians, do you also not see stereotypes in this statement replacing asians with blacks, and positive statements with negative statements?</p>
<p>"Blacks have the highest crimes rates in the world. It’s not surprising to me that “the Blacks” you speak of are able to do the things you described. When you don’t buy $150 SAT Classes every year and eschew studying for less time consuming substitutes, affording guns and crack, stealing, and killing becomes a lot easier. It’s all about opportunity cost. To some people, a $15 SAT review book aren't expensive, but the latest Nikes are exorbitant. To others, the reverse is true."</p>
<p>If you think that what I said about ballot claims was an unjustified stereotype, I'm sorry. But the most vocal supporters of them have been the same people who have sued schools alleging discrimination over admissions like Jian Li with Princeton, and the famous Grutter v. Bollinger case at Michigan. Yes, I do think it's true that they are driven by cases like that. Certainly not all supporters of the ballot initiatives are white or asian, but I would argue that most of them are. Do you disagree?</p>
<p>None of what I said was meant as a personal attack on you so I hope I didn't offend, and I definitely agree with you that race based discrimination should stop in all it's forms, including affirmative action. But I think that for now, there is an overriding imperative to have diverse institutions of higher education, and if that requires race based preferences then colleges should be allowed to use them to admit the freshman class they want. What solutions do you propose to address the historic under-achievement of URM groups?</p>
<p>Next, do you think that college admissions should be fair? The reason the "[X] isn't fair, so deal with it," statement falters against segregation and other status quo ills, is because whatever the state's purpose is, it should be applied equitably to all people, regardless of race. Colleges have a different goal, their goal is to educate their students, they have no responsibility to treat applicants fairly. Look at it from the admissions office standpoint, not the students standpoint.</p>
<p>Students apply to colleges and think, I should be admitted before any less qualified students and after any more qualified students. The admissions office looks at it as, we want a diverse talented student body, oh, and the football team needs X, and Y, and the band wants a tuba player, and Z has to get in because his family is a big donor, etc. Fairness to individual applicants doesn't come into the picture.</p>
<p>If your advocacy for race-blind admissions doesn't translate into support for admissions solely on academic merit, then what sort of admissions system do you support? Assuming you're okay with recruiting athletes/legacies/students with a particular talent a campus group needs, why do you think those should be compelling reasons for the admissions committee to admit somebody, and diversity of the student body is not?</p>
<p>Yes, students can still interact with all sorts of people under race-blind admissions, but campuses would be markedly less diverse. It's interesting that you use Berkeley as an example, since after California banned affirmative action, the proportion of asian students enrolled sky rocketed. While great for the surely deserving asian students who were accepted, I think it's probably worse for Berkeley as a whole. Check out this piece in the New York Times about it. It's a little old, but still very relevant. <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/07/education/edlife/07asian.html</a></p>
<p>"Berkeley would be racially homogeneous" </p>
<p>it is.</p>
<p>As I have said in previous threads...
diverstiy is what makes america great. Colleges DO need diversity..</p>
<p>This thread is by far diversity at its FINESt...you have everyone from white,black, Asian, Hispanic etc alll offering there own diverse opinion. Everyone is integrating their cultural beliefs into this one topic. You may arguse that there is this many posts because its a controversial top however I think if there were just Asians and whites or just blacks and Hispanics in this thread there would be ver little to debate. Seriously, in a matter of day this thread is 3 pages full.</p>
<p>If anyone of you can prove that diversity hasn't contributed to this thread... Or having others present their ideas against yours didn't make your beliefs stronger or weaker or even stayed the same then diversity has not done its job and inevitably AA doesn't serve a purpose.</p>
<p>^^As real as it gets...Great post ixjunitxi....</p>
<p>Just curious ixjunitxi,</p>
<p>Since our usernames don't exactly have a race attached to them, I'm assuming you're just guessing that all those races are represented. Who's what race?</p>
<p>Well i am white/black </p>
<p>jmoney00- is an african american</p>
<p>Jackiesakura, brokenw1ngs, fabrizio are asian</p>
<p>Mister Sinister- is asian/white</p>
<p>Phatalbert- i thinki your white/ not sure </p>
<p>its obviousn that there is more than one race in this thread...bc if there werent i think there would be very little to debate</p>
<p>Im actually Puerto Rican and Black</p>
<p>I'm Filipino :) (Asian)</p>