@preamble1776
Have you and your dad had a chance to talk to your friend?
People do get hired from the Art Institutes, but for many people, it is not a smart risk/reward trade-off.
@Madison85 - I invited her to have lunch with my family this Saturday and she agreed; I haven’t brought up anything about the school quite yet (I didn’t want to make it seem as though I am inviting for the sole purpose of “lecturing” her and whatnot. Since classes at both my Uni and my Dad’s college are starting up soon, I thought we’d just naturally bring education into the conversation and go from there.)
Here’s something I’ve been thinking about:
My Dad hears about a lot of students at the community college who were in some sort of medical assistant program at a for profit school, who subsequently graduated but were unable to find work and now they are at back to square one so to speak, starting over at a community college with a huge debt load. In the medical field, there are pretty strict guidelines for credentials, certification, professionalism, etc - so it is understandable that people coming from an unaccredited institution would have difficulty landing a job in a hospital type setting. However, I’m under the impression that the fine arts are sort of different - art schools and art programs are more about refining your craft and networking with fellow artists - right? When it comes to fashion design, there is no overarching accrediting body comparable to AAMC or ABA or anything like that so in theory, wouldn’t she be able to find employment if she was simply talented enough? To me, the main issue is the debt her and/or her mother is shouldering for this education. I think that was the main point I wanted to tackle when I talk with her.
It could take her and her mother their lifetimes to pay back the $100k debt. I wonder about the interest rate.
What about when she wants to get married, buy a house, have kids? A potential future mate may shy away from her and her debt.
So many consequences!
How much does a job in fashion design pay?
I know! Not only could it potentially take decades to pay off; any sort of delinquency or default will destroy their credit - or worse, spark garnishment of wages/social security benefits. That’ll prevent her from getting certain jobs, getting a mortgage, a new car, etc. And just like you said, a lot of people would be very tentative about marrying into that much debt.
I don’t know how much fashion design jobs pay - I don’t know any fashion designers other than the uber famous ones like Michael Kors and Calvin Klein. As for individuals who lack such name recognition, I have not the slightest clue how much they make on average.
@Madison85
I think you have to be careful not to criticize AI or seem to put down her current choice. Instead, focus on the positives of a change. It’s going to be some “salesmanship” and guiding her to what she thinks is her own best decision.
There’s info about where fashion design grads work- one study I saw said 70% land in retail. (It can depend on the particular program/major.) Sometimes, it leads to buyer positions, etc, but it’s highly competitive, in general. (Two profs I know, from a very legit program, described the pro world as dog-eat-dog.) Which AI is she at? Internship opps, connections? But the bottom line seems to be she can’t afford it.
I don’t think all for profit colleges are evil, though I think they oversell their job placement abilities. There’s one in our area that offers various health related degrees, accounting stuff, culinary stuff and some other things. My impression is they do try to provide useful vocational skills - and their price tag is less than $7000 a semester.
preamble, I think you are right to try to reach out to her about this. It’s just way too much debt for an art student. We went through the debt exercise several years ago when my D thought she might want to go to art school. The one she was considering wasn’t for-profit, and in fact is very well-respected, but the debt for 4 years would have approached $100k. Given that the common, sensible advise is not to borrow more than you expect to earn your first year out of college, that was obviously not a good choice. (Happily, she ditched the art school idea and is now a very happy and inspired Biology major at an excellent LAC!)
I myself was an art major, and have many friends who studied fine art. Nobody -NOBODY- had a real job right out of college. Most folks were still waiting tables or working in retail 5 years later.
Here are some national averages for jobs that she might get, if she were very lucky. This is after 10 years at the job, obviously the starting pay is lower, and field is very competitive:
Assistant fashion designer $38,000
Fashion industry PR coordinator $38,000
Fsshion/wardrobe stylist $40,000
Fashion merchandiser $40,000
Fashio editorial assistant $34,000
Fashion designer $49,000
^Subtract 10-16,000 for the entry-level pay.
Total debt for 4 years should equal, roughly, how much you can reasonably expect to earn your first year - s, for someone in art or fashion design, that should be about 20-25,000 for all 4 years combined.
This is a 3-year degree, right? Therefore, not even a BA/BS (note that there’s no specific degree designation, just “the program”…) It’s not likely to be seen as of higher value than an AA/AS, if that. To find a job, someone with a recognizable degree (AA, AS, BA…) will be preferred to someone who simply completed a “program”.
In addition, imagine she wants to become, say, an elementary school art teacher.
That job doesn’t pay as badly as most in the fashion industry, especially not fif you compare the first 10-20 years of work, it’s fairly stable, etc. But she cannot come from a for-profit school, she has to come from an accredited, non-profit school.
@Preamble1776, let us know how the lunch goes this weekend. Good luck. You’re a good friend. 
I think some of the information you are finding on the Art Institute is inaccurate. As a for profit, the Art Institute is required by federal mandates to report how many graduates are gainfully employed after graduation and whether that employment is tied to the degree the student received. Trust me, the people responsible for assisting students with employment are very aggressive when it comes to placing graduates and current students into positions. Even though Ai is for profit, they must follow similar guidelines set for all higher education institutions by the Department of Education. Additionally, most branches programs are accredited when that is applicable. Ai also works with students eligible for federal aid, GI Bill, etc. just like any other institution. Ai does appeal to students who are not interested in a more traditional higher education path because it is more fast track and trade/profession oriented. I’ve found this appealed to those seeking a second career, students who may not have been strong in academics - but are talented in the arts, students who have to work through school and appreciate the schedule flexibility to do that, students with children, and older students.
This program may appeal to your friend because in 2 or 3 years, attending full time, she will graduate with a trade/professional degree which might be difficult to get in 4 years in art oriented careers when you start at a community college. I’ve known of persons transferring into Ai from community college who had trouble keeping up with the demands of the workload at Ai - they weren’t prepared. Many Ai degrees have class requirements similar to their university counterparts because those programs have the same accrediting bodies.
Certainly, the Art Institute isn’t the right fit for everyone. I cannot speak to the cost of attendance you are quoting, though it sounds high. The people I have known who teach at Ai really care about their students success and really know their industries/subjects, as most are working professionals who enjoy teaching the next generation of artist and designers.
http://www.artinstitutes.edu/accreditation-and-licensing.aspx indicates that some of the Art Institutes have regional accreditation, but some do not (those have accreditation from some national accrediting organization).
The Art Insitutes in California (considered branches of Argosy University, which is owned by the same parent company) just barely miss the criteria for Cal Grant eligibility (default rate < 15.5%, graduation rate > 30% – the Ai schools have 15.8% default rate and 38.5% graduation rate), according to http://www.csac.ca.gov/pubs/forms/grnt_frm/2014_15_ineligible_cal_grant_schools.pdf .
Op,
I am unable to answer your question about how bad for- profit schools are. But I have some musings on fashion designers and medical assistants.
I know 2 people whose kids became fashion designers. Their kids went to standard, not for profit, arts colleges. I think 1 went to Otis college of art and design. Not sure where the seond one went… Maybe an art school in New York (parsons? Pratt?) They ended up being successful because the 2 schools are known for their fashion design and so they had built up the connections needed to work they way up into the fashion world. The reality of starting out at a community college and transferring to FIDM or wherever doesn’t really make sense because the requirements to graduate at Otis or FIDM require min gen ed type of stuff that one is picking up at a cc. So I think the biggest impact of whether she will hit a dead end is how many of AI grads really go into the fashion world and when is the network like. Since there are so many AIs, does it cheapen the network? Or does it make more grads available to try to contact?
She could or should transfer to a cc if her interest are more design related because she after cc she could do design type of work at either a traditional 4 yr uni or an arts college.
Additionally, regular, not for profit, types of arts colleges, charge tuition of 30k to 45k per year. So AIs tuition rates are not necessarily higher than many arts colleges, are are much lower than, say Risd’s tuition.
As for medical assistants, usually MA certificate is 6 mos or 1 yr. we do basically view them as having a HS diploma only. Of course any 4 yr college grad blows the 1 yr MA person away in skills usually. But sometimes 1 yr MA shows us that they have some skill and committment over a straight up HS grad. If a person has a MA certificate and does not have a job, it’s can be because they they are not excited about working. Seems like there are lots of MD offices that need MAs.
Back to fashion design, there always is a huge risk that people take when taking out large debt to pursue art and design in general. May your friend should read this.
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/visual-arts-film-majors/1571799-pursuing-a-new-degree-after-100k-debt-for-unfinished-risd-degree-a-cautionary-tale.html#latest
Otoh, if she knows that she wants to do fashion design, not sure what other options that she has.
Medical Assistants are lucky to make $15/hour. Also, there is a lot of turnover with them. There are other health care certificate/associate programs which have a better future than them.
100K is a lot of money for a program with not a big demand/future. You need to show her the truth of the situation. Most fashion designers make very little money. There are masters/doctorate programs which cost less than 100k and those people can recoup their money.
I hope things went well for you and your friend this weekend @preamble1776.
I was one of those low income individuals who went to a for profit school for secretarial positions twenty years ago. I did get a good jobright away and have been employed for the last twenty years, however, I absolutely regret not going to a community college instead because now that I want to do something else besides being an admin, no one will look at my extensive experience on my resume since I do not have a degree. iactually cannot even get a decent executive admin position without a bachelor’s lol! And I only had about $7k in debt back then. I can’t imagine being100k in debt. I’d still be praying it off!
Guess who is now in community college with my twenty years younger than me friends!
Sorry for the mistakes…I am typing on my phone and it is very difficult to edit!
Preamble, how did it go?
100K in debt is crazy regardless of the AI degree value. We tell students in ABET accredited CS programs that 100k is too much. Even for them, 50k is too much. For anything art-related… it’s impossible to pay back.
Hey everyone.
So we (my father and I) talked to her mostly about debt/debt aversion and how important it is for her career to keep debt to a minimum. I used myself as an example - I chose an undergrad that would allow me to graduate debt free as to allow myself more breathing room for financing grad school, etc. She said that she would discuss the prospect of withdrawing with an advisor at the school and she was going to meet with someone at the CC today (they were closed for MLK day) about possible programs that are more geared towards her interests. I think there is a certain date within the next month where she can withdraw for partial/full refund of whatever was paid to the school.
I do not know the specifics of how many loans were taken out but she did tell me that she was sort of trying to “not think about it” which suggests to me that the debt is higher than she is comfortable with.