<p>There are high schools with under 300 students and high schools with over 3,000. Is there an ideal size for a high school? What kind of staffing numbers would go with your ideal sized school.</p>
<p>1800-2200 students which is large enough for the full HS experience, and, more importantly, provide for a full selection of the all-important AP/IB programs. <30 kids/class</p>
<p>I'll bite - my kids' school has about 135-150 seniors, I think they are trying to move toward the higher end of that range 140-145. My husband's high school class had about 150, mine 85. We have talked about this, he teaches public high school (school 1800, 350-400 seniors), and feel that the 140-145 is almost ideal for a high school, but it is quite expensive. Staffing, I don't know.</p>
<p>I love my highschool. I've never felt overwhelmed, and only in the last few weeks have I felt like I've outgrown it (which is pretty good timing, considering I graduate in 4 months. We've got about 1200 kids.</p>
<p>I agree with Bluebayou about the overall size, with some tweaking.<br>
Some years ago, a principal tried to break our 2000 student hs into 5 autonomous schools to which incoming students would be randomly assigned but which would, over time, develop their own character and specialization. But she could not do it because there was too much opposition: there was no possibility of staffing all 5 400-student schools with teachers of Latin, Spanish, French, Italian;or the current array of AP classes; or special ed, vocational classes and academic support. The compromise has been to create 5 (now 4) small schools with their own deans (2) and GCs (2 or 3 per school) and allow students to cross school lines for APs, vocational classes, languages and other specialized offerings. The key, though, is classes capped at 30 and the deans and GCs knowing the students in their charge. Another issue has been to ensure that teachers share the same learning expectations across the schools and have real professional development, so that some schools are not perceived as the more academic ones, and others as dumping places for struggling students (which is what we had before).</p>
<p>I laughed when I read Bluebayou's post - this is a LAC vs university type argument, I see it coming. My husband was telling me about the county school experimenting with the school within a school concept in the middle schools - where kids are broken into groups of 400 - this is to recreate the intimacy of a smaller school, but retain extracurriculars - they are thinking about extending this to some of the high schools. </p>
<p>My DH's high school was, back in the 70s, probably the perfect high school - it was a "laboratory school" as they called it then, for the next door regional state university (really a glorified teachers' college). It had an electic diverse student body heavily enriched with offspring of the professors at the university, poor rural and millworker kids, and Army brats who had lived all over. Rick Bragg was a classmate of my husband's. Almost every class had a student teacher from 1st grade on. Since the uni had an especially strong art and music department, the arts at the high school were correspondingly strong, plus with the size, everyone got opportunities to participate - no specialists at that size school. It was a remarkable place, and is still a good high school, although not as unusual as it was then.</p>
<p>We've experienced two high schools with our Ds. One had approximately 1500 students and the other just under 1000. The smaller one was better in every way and what I've come to believe is almost a perfect size. The kids knew not only the kids in their own grade but many of those both younger or older. The class sizes were smaller. The teachers were more dedicated. There was more school spirit. More kids (and teachers) participated in extra-curriculars. More involved parents. Better academic results. When I graduated many moons ago, my graduating class had 800 in it! I didn't even know the names of everyone in my class. I wouldn't wish a school that large on anyone in high school. I don't believe it's the same as comparing LAC to large universities because h/s and college are so very different experiences.</p>
<p>I know that NYC is on a big push to create smaller hisgh schools (even got a few million from Gates to achieve this mission). </p>
<p>I went to a really large h.s. which daughter went to a small h.s (actually one of the handful of 6-12 public schools in NYC) that is housed with another small 6-12 school. This years graduating class is 87 students (there were 97 last year. School is beginning to come bottom heavy as they admitted 135 6th grades as their ultimate goal is to have students come in only at 6th grade like Hunter. There are 2 separate slate of teachers and administrations while they share sports teams. Some of the biggest disparities between the 2 schools are at D's school is that her school is among the citiy's highest performing middle schools in the city and it is just as competitive to get into the high school as it is to get ito Stuy, Tech and Bronx science because of the very limited number of slots in the h.s. because a large percentage of students stay. School also has families from the surrounding neighborhoods that have incomes in the 6 to 7 figures (active PTA that raises over $100,000 per year for enrichment activities, teachers supplies and has a reserve of a few hundred thousand dollars) and is close to being a private public school, while the other school has no where near the resources.</p>
<p>While some schools (very few) are in stand alone buildings, most of these new small high schools stem from breaking don larger high schools, so there are still 3000 kids in one place.</p>
<p>I don't know the answer but a few things to think about. Background: S's high school (9-12) is just around 500; 135 in Sr. class.[ul][<em>]In his HS, everyone knows everyone else in the class. That has, I'm sure, its goods and its bads. Is it due to size only? I don't know. In our town, you have gone to school with virtually the same kids since K - altered only by new people moving in/some moving out. [</em>]There are not defined cliques, or stereotyped groups of jocks/preps/goths/nerds.... Individual kids will have those characteristics, but they will usually have more than one and there is a fluidness among who you "hang out with" depending upon the activity not defined groups. Again, don't know if it's size only, or some other characteristic of this school. There was more of this cliquishness in middle school but it seems to have been ougrown. [<em>]Following the Columbine/Oregon etc. situations, there was much discussion nationally that smaller is safer. I believe it focused on the everyone-knowing-everyone factor, less anomie etc. Don't know if that can be/has been proven, but I certainly started to appreciate our school size at that point. [</em>]This size HS is able to offer about a dozen APs, arts, music, other "interesting" electives (Holocaust studies, psychology...) but obviously not what larger schools can offer. It seems to be more than adequate for reasonable #s to go on to HYPS/AWS etc.[<em>]Class sizes are virtually always under 20 [</em>]This size school is not a cost-effective way to go. We have the 1 HS and 1 MS and 1 elem, all similar size. For this, we have a Superintendent, business office etc. etc. Each similar town around us has ditto. [*]Combining the last two points, certain offerinng are sometimes in jeopardy - not enough kids for Latin? not enough for AP Physics? much lobbying, budget-fidgeting, etc. in certain cases which probably doesn't occur in larger schools [/ul]</p>
<p>depends on school and kid
big help huh?
My oldest attended a school with 18 in her graduating class. I think it could have been bigger and other classes are bigger, about 70 I think now.
Her sister attended a K-12 school with about 70 in each class, but now attends a school of 1700, and finds that the larger school has a lot more resources.
The K-12 school & the comprehensive high school are public urban, the 18 in a class school is private prep.
I wouldn't change anything about the larger school except to have smaller class sizes, some classes are over 40 average is 32. I think 20-25 is a good size for a class.</p>
<p>Cangel:</p>
<p>I'm not sure it is a lac vs. U discussion, since I was thinking about a typical 'public' school paid for by tax payer dollars, and which needs to be cost-effective in its offerings. But, for a private HS, I'd suggest approx half that size, since they can self-select students and would liklely have plenty of resources (like a LAC) to offer a lot of enriching programs despite their small size.</p>
<p>btw: I'm a BIG fan of LAC's for most kids.</p>
<p>I think 200-300 students a grade is optimal. I think that's large enough to offer a wide variety of courses and small enough that kids don't feel like a number. However, I think it also makes a difference when effort is put into creating a community. School spirit and a sense of belonging are important. Spirit shouldn't be something that's limited to sports teams. Every kid should feel as if at least one member of the faculty cares about him as a person. </p>
<p>I had roughly 450 kids in my high school class. It was too big. Teachers knew the good students, the jocks, and the trouble makers. Kids in the middle who didn't play sports or an instrument (band was big) were virtually invisible, unless they were very good looking.</p>
<p>my daughters high school of 1700 is a little larger than I think is optimum.
Still thay have one of highest graduation rates in area, inc for AA students. Whereas our state grad rate for AA students is 50% they graduate 73.4% in 4 years and 84.4% in 5 years. I expect the rate will go up even more next year, as the new principal is working very hard to have accountability throughout the school, including in student body.
He has much better communication with the staff and parents and is starting to win over students, a big leap from previous principal.
While the ratio is larger than I like to see at a high school, virtually all staff try hard to connect with students. Security officers have good rapport with students, most teachers have tutoring or are otherwise available after school and during lunch, and most teachers sponsor a club or group to involve students. Communication by email is increasing, and I found at least to have much better communication at my daughters school of 1700, than from her K-12 school of 650 which prided itself on "personal relationships". The accountability and response from the larger school is so superior, that all my misgivings about her attending a comprehensive high school have vanished. :)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Security officers
[/quote]
How common are these? Needless to say, I had no idea....</p>
<p>Security officers (or as they are called here School Safety Officers) they are in every high school in NYC and are now part of the NYPD</p>
<p>This question has been very much on my mind as I've looked at the various boarding schools. The ones with 300 have the same 25 APs the ones with over a thousand have, all of the sports, and almost as many activities. Given that, would most folks choose the smaller school?</p>
<p>Family size, expanding to a circle of family friends on an as-needed basis. That's just how our homeschooling support groups operate.</p>
<p>Kirmum:</p>
<p>we would if we had the moolah.</p>
<p>All of the schools I've recently visited have 40 plus percent on fin aid blueayou, so if you're really interested I wouldn't hesitate.</p>
<p>My school has approximately 3.4 thousand kids and offers over 20 APs. I havn't had a class with over 30 people, excluding P.E in 9th and 10th grade, and couldn't see myself at a school with less than 2000 kids. I love having a big school, it's great!</p>