How can a BSEET grad get a real engineering job?

College Majors Engineering Majors
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<p>Hi Everyone,</p>

<p>Sorry for a really long post here. If you have some real world experience, please feel free to chime in on any of the questions below. Your words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.</p>

<p>Here's my situation. In 2002 I graduated with an A.A.S. in Electrical Engineering Technology and enlisted in the Navy where I became an electrician. In 2006, I was honorably discharged and got a job as a Field Service Engineer working with installation, troubleshooting and maintenance of semiconductor manufacturing equipment. It is the job that I still have today. I also obtained a Master Electrician license just because I had the education and experience to qualify for the exam, but I'm not required to have it for work. The pay is good but I have to work long hours, a variety of different shifts, and also there is a fair amount of crawling into tight spaces and lifting things involved. All of this is not too bad since I'm 31 at the moment and in good physical shape. But I'm not getting any younger and I know I can't do this job until I retire. This means I will likely need to change careers. I've always enjoyed working with computers, writing programs, and troubleshooting electrical circuits. I'm a good learner and I've taught myself things such as C++, Linux and Cisco using books ordered on the internet and I can learn whatever else that might be needed. I'm leaning towards IT and/or electrical engineering jobs.</p>

<p>Two years ago and after doing some research on the internet, I've concluded that EAC/ABET accredited 4-year degree is what describes a solid engineering foundation. There is a local ABET-accredited university to which I applied for BSEE and after all of my transcripts were reviewed, I was told that only 12 credits would apply towards the degree. Since I have a family to support, I cannot quit my job or work part time so I can go to school full time. This means that the available time I had would allow me to take no more than two classes per semester. Going at that rate, it would take me about 8 or more years to complete the program assuming everything works out in my favor. This was too long and I could not afford to take this risk due to a possibility of having to move and things that sometimes just happen in life. I wanted to explain the logic behind my actions so it can be better understood why I chose to attend a different school. </p>

<p>After I got my response, I decided to do an online degree program at ECPI University for BS in Electronics Engineering Technology and here's why. The program was online and I was able to do it full time from home on the weekends. It was year round with no breaks. The school transferred in almost 50 of my credits and I used only some of my post 9/11 GI Bill benefits to pay for it, so there is no expense that I incurred. ECPI University is a regionally accredited school. I completed the program and now have a bachelor's degree.</p>

<p>However, because it was so much faster, certain sacrifices had to be made. There are at least three disadvantages of this degree that are hurting my chances at getting the job that I want. First, the curriculum does not have an ABET accreditation. Second, this is a "technology" degree which is not "engineering". And finally, since this is a private, for profit school; fairly or unfairly, but there are some people in HR and Engineering departments that believe that degrees from these schools hold no value what-so-ever.</p>

<p>So here's the questions.</p>

<p>The main one is “what do I do next”? </p>

<p>I know that “Engineering” and “Engineering Technology” are not the same. Engineering has more advanced math/calculus based physics and that’s the biggest difference from what I gather. One thing I cannot comprehend is why in the world I cannot just go to a different college today and add these “missing” classes all by themselves in non-degree status? Surely, it won’t turn my BSEET into a BSEE, but I’ll have the same math and physics under my belt. Does it really matter if they are not a part of the BSEET curriculum and that I passed them at a different school? I probably don’t have what it takes to go for PhD in Physics or Math, but I passed integral calculus as a part of my AASEET and I know I can get through undergrad engineering math with no issues. The question is not whether I can pass the math classes. The question is “Will it increase my chances of getting an engineering job by much if I add some theoretical classes to match the requirement of an ABET/EAC engineering curriculum”?</p>

<p>Also, in order to prove that I know anything even remotely engineering related, I can pass Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam which anybody can take in New Hampshire. At that point, if I have a BSEET, EIT certificate, Master Electrician license and 11 years of technical experience, do I have a good chance of getting a junior/entry level electrical engineer job at some company? I can eventually pursue PE license in my state with BSEET, it just takes more experience to qualify for the exam. I'm interested in many things including CAD design at an MEP firm, integrated circuit design/testing and many other things. I don't limit myself too much here since I want to see what the job market feels I'm qualified for before I get picky.</p>

<p>I currently have an active application for admission to the same public university that I decided not to attend two years ago. Since only a handful of credits would apply towards BSEE, this time I'm applying for MSEE. The admissions confirmed that they would accept my BSEET as a prerequisite for MSEE since it is from a regionally accredited school, but I would have to complete some bridge courses to cover the academic gaps they find. It shouldn’t be more than a handful of math/physics classes they say, which is acceptable to me. If I get in and complete MSEE in a couple of years, would it give me a significant boost and put me on the same academic level with someone that has a BSEE in the eyes of employers? Or am I forever doomed because of my technology degree from a for profit school at the undergraduate level, no matter what I do?</p>

<p>Also, if it turns out that the school will not admit me into a MSEE program, I can try to get into an MS of some kind of IT at the same school. My philosophy about it is that MSEE would be better since it is so universal and you can do anything computer/electrical engineering/IT or even research type of work with it, but MS in an IT field would only be helpful in IT industry where sometimes even high level certifications hold more weight than a master's degree. In the end, a graduate degree is a graduate degree. Not sure how much help it will be but it's obvious it won't be hurting my chances. Am I right to assume that MSEE would be a lot better for me where MS in an IT discipline would be just a generic master's degree that won't get too many employers overly excited?</p>

<p>So, looking for some helpful advice here. I have enough GI Bill benefits left to get me through graduate school with no problems, so financial side is not the issue. My main concern is how do I get the job that I want? Do I pretty much have no choice but to get a graduate degree, or there is something else I have not mentioned here that I can do to increase my chances of getting a job without a master's degree? I’m not a big fan of going to classes and, frankly, I don’t think that doing more schooling at this point is really going to provide me with any extra knowledge I’d actually use for entry level engineering work (other than credentials and grades to get the job in the first place). So, if I can get away with not having to go back to school and just use what I have now, I’d probably utilize that option. But I’m mentally prepared to “suck it up” if I do have to go back to school, again.</p>

<p>I know people who worked in IT for many years who say that after you get five to ten years of experience, the school you went to and its accreditation status won't matter nearly as much as the kind of work you have done since graduation, what skills you have and what certificates you hold. When it comes to engineering field, after I read the forums where people who claim to be experienced engineers share their thoughts, it seems like a technology degree will handicap you for the entire career and you will always be looked at as a second class citizen irrespective of the quality of work that you produce. This worries me because I would like to be an electrical engineer more than an IT professional. If I do become an engineer now and after 20 years of producing good engineering work, what are the chances that I have to see some 24-year old becoming my boss solely because they have a degree in engineering and I have a degree in technology? I might have exaggerated this a bit, but this is an important decision for me and I have to make sure I make the right one.</p>

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<p>It’s way too hard to give you an answer to this without knowing you and your personal situation. That being said, here is some general advice:</p>

<p>1) Getting an MSEE will certainly put you in a better position to get a better job in the future than a BSEET or a BSEE degree. Ask yourself this: Do you want to go to work at a different job right now, or do you want to continue going to school? </p>

<p>2) My best guess is that I kind of doubt that taking the calc-based physics and theoretical math classes will make those who are skeptical about your technology degree hire you (I could be completely wrong here). A few might. Those classes might help you on the job, depending on what job you get.</p>

<p>3) Some companies won’t hire you if you have technology at the end of your degree. Some will only hire you into the applications-oriented positions, such as quality engineer, test engineer, field engineer, production manager/supervisor, manufacturing engineer, sales engineer, etc. Some won’t care at all. Some will only consider you for technician positions (don’t work for those companies – you’re not a technician). It’s a mixed bag. I just did some work for a company where the head of engineering had a BS in Industrial Technology, which requires far less math than an engineering technology degree. One of the people he oversees has a PhD in chemical engineering.</p>

<p>4) Yes, for-profit online schools are frowned upon by some companies. I don’t know how many places will block you because of that, but some will.</p>

<p>5) You mentioned that human resources doesn’t like for profit schools. That means you are trying to go through HR to get your job. Regardless of your degree, you should avoid human resources in your job search if you can. HR doesn’t hire anyone who doesn’t work in HR. On engineering positions, they can only screen people before putting them in front of hiring managers. You need to find a way to connect with the hiring managers. 12% of people hired from outside the company get hired via job boards. An equal number get hired via jobs posted on the company web site. That means that 75% are hired via other means, with the number one way being through networking, and number two being some other way of connecting with the hiring manager directly, such as direct mail. When you look for a job, you need to use all methods. Applying for advertised positions via the internet is the least likely to bear fruit, yet over half of most job hunters’ time is spent using this method, according to research.</p>

<p>6) You have many years of on-the-job experience from the Navy, plus experience from your current job. You carry the title of engineer. What you’re really saying is that you want to change from an applications engineering position to a different type of engineering position (to me, a CAD position sounds like a step down, by the way – lots of people with no degree or 2-year degrees do that). Moving from an applications position to a different type of engineering position can be done, but it will take a lot of work. Job hunting is hard work (as is continuing your education). Changing your career path is unlikely to happen by applying for posted jobs, because they are going to hire people who meet the specifications exactly. You need to connect with the right people and make them like you enough and believe in you enough to give you the chance to make the change. This is the case with all career-changers. At your experience level, you could now be considered for a management position, which may also want to consider. How to hunt for a job is a book, not just a post, and I can’t cover it here.</p>

<p>There is no easy answer, but you now have a BS degree. Don’t let what you think other people think about the technology tag and the school name let you get in the way of what you want to do. If need be, augment it with other courses. If you want a new job now, try knocking on doors now before you decide you’re going to be crawling on your back for life (the answer is that you will be if you’re not that great or if that is what you really enjoy doing and can be superior at it, and you won’t be on your back all your life if you are good and show some drive). </p>

<p>At this point, your work experience is probably more important than your degree. Your new degree is a plus. Get out there and see what you can find.</p>

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<p>Husband has been an EE for 30 years (BSEE & MSEE) with a big corporate employer. He often is on the hiring committee for new engineers. He asks to see the actual diplomas. If he sees a non-bsee degree, he will ask the employee to complete an EE task or calc/physics problem as part of the interview. These interviewees will often not do well. It is a very difficult field to get into if you don’t have the “right” paperwork. There are engineers that he has hired that have taken 2 classes at a time per year. They finally get their degrees and work for the company.</p>

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<p>That is why as smart as some engineers really are with logic…they have very little common sense. If they truly work with variables, the biggest one missed is when it comes to people. I’m in a field where if I want to advance, I have to get a degree. Since I am in the same boat as the original poster, the choices available are not even close to what people like your husband understand. There are more BSEE’s coming from other countries and working for less money. I know personally a guy that is in the top 5% of his field and has no paper. I also know another guy that has the “right” paper that would not know what an electron was if it bit him on the nose. Might be able to solve a math problem but could not do anything else. It is people that don’t have the “right papers” that catch why a design is flawed and causes issues. This being said, the “right” engineers are relying more on the experienced technicians until they “catch on” which I have seen take 3-5 years. Technicians are expected to be proficient in as few as 6 months with 3 months of shadowing. Again the reason why the field gets saturated with the wrong people is because they have the “right” paper…</p>

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<p>Thank you everyone for your posts. Just giving a quick update. My application went through and I was accepted into MSEE program at the state school I was applying to. I decided to accept the offer of admission and I’m starting my first semester later this month. I mapped out the whole process and it looks like it’s going to take me 2.5 years to complete requirements for the MSEE as well as the bridge courses. </p>

<p>So, if I have a BSEET degree from ECPI and MSEE from a state public school (ABET accredited at the BSEE level) - would this constitute the minimum requirement for the “right (enough) papers” to get me a junior level engineering job interview? Would anyone care that my bachelor’s degree is from ECPI at that point?</p>

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<p>I’ve known quite a few technicians-turned-engineers.
Try asking your employer for an engineering job. It’s harder now than it used to be (poor economy, oversupply of degreed professionals), but it’s still worth a try. It will save you years of work if they agree to give you a try.</p>

<p>If not, the MS is a good option.</p>

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<p>NeoDymium,</p>

<p>I have actually tried that and they gave me a chance to try a position of a semiconductor process engineer for several months without actually changing my title. This position requires a minimum of a BS in any type of engineering when hired from the outside. I was successful in that role and they offered me the job. The problem is that it really is not “engineering” as I imagine it. Watching the charts all day, making adjustments to the recipes and running qualification tests is hardly considered to be “engineering” in my books. In short, I did not like the job (which btw, also pays less). Ironically, I feel like I’m developing more in my current role which is closer to a technician than an engineer.</p>

<p>MSEE is what I hope is going to help me make the switch into engineering. There are other engineering jobs with my employer that I would probably enjoy more and for which I’d qualify for with the MS, but at that point I hope that other employers would at least interview me so I could have more options. </p>

<p>So, would my weak undergraduate program put me at a significant disadvantage while job hunting if I have a decent MSEE from a school that is locally well known?</p>

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<p>MSEE requires very serious math in most places. Don’t ask how I know :). Classes like Signals and Systems are not for the faint-at-math types…</p>

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<p>

Not really. Your undergrad pretty much doesn’t matter after you have the MS.</p>

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<p>The math in an MSEE is not very serious, unless you are at Berkeley, MIT or another top tier where Physicists and Mathematicians are teaching in the departments. Math in an MSEE program at places like Michigan, Penn State, Iowa, Ohio State, Purdue and the like is just basic. They teach basic mathematical methods in a single course in the department. All the methods where developed by mathematicians and physicists to solve EE problems then handed to the technologists/technicians on a level they could comprehend. The EE math-based classes are methods and do not enforce cogent knowledge just rote procedures and equations as usual. </p>

<p>It is better for the majority of BSEET students to stick to the applications they loved in undergrad than to attempt pursuing an MSEE with bridge courses and obstacles then find that they still end up doing applications. The vast majority of MSEE holders are doing applications and do not posses the Maths or Physics to do solid research. This is usually carried out by graduates who took dual credentials at undergrad or who chose to do Physics/Maths to the Master level then switched to do a Phd in Engineering.</p>

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<p>Communications, Signals and Systems, Antennae, Analog anything, DSP anything and a few other EE classes have math that is **very **serious. Unless of course my mind has degraded so much that Fourier Transforms are easy to do for most mortals except me…</p>

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<p>BSEET here</p>

<p>I was in the navy as well as a FC. I got my BSEET 1 year after I got out from a state school. I xfered in all my FC credits and the classes I took part time. I was hired as a test engineer with the intentions that I would be finishing up my BSEET degree. As it was suggested by others here moving into an engineering position is very hard with a BSEET degree. However I made the move a few years ago. 2 things that got me there. </p>

<ol>
<li>I asked the engineers what was required to do the job.<br></li>
<li> Any classes that would help out.</li>
</ol>

<p>Long story short after graduating I took Calc 2/Diff equations and circuit analysis class, and 2 years later I was brought on as a staff engineer. I doubt this can happen coming from the outside, but it does happen We actually have bought on a few. They all came from ET programs that stress the math with the theory. Anyways having a military background with the fundamentals behind you can take you a long way with the right opportunity. When I hit the job market to see what was out here I got the same funny stares, but when I talked about what I was doing at work and how I was doing it I actually got some offers.</p>

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<p>Navyfc,</p>

<p>Thank you for sharing your experience. It’s great to see that I’m not alone having this problem with my BSEET. I actually already considered taking some additional undergrad classes (math and physics) in hopes to boost my “employability”. But now I am actually working on MSEE at a state school which I think is a much better option. I just finished my first semester and so far doing well. If I stick to the study plan I got my student advisor to sign off on, I will be done with everything in two years from now. Most people I spoke with confirmed that after I have the MSEE, my undergrad will be a lot less important. </p>

<p>As far as difficulty of MSEE, I can say that it is pretty challenging. Some classes require a lot of work outside of the classroom. I took my first required “math heavy” graduate level class in the Fall and I can say that it was not a walk in the park. But I still did fine in it and now taking the second required math-oriented class this Spring. I did not need tutoring yet but I also have no problems paying for it if needed.</p>

<p>As turbo93 mentions above, I hear pretty much the same thing from other grad students about DSP and Signals. Those subjects are for the ones truly dedicated to that specific area since they are really tough. I have a full time job and a family so there is little interest in investing 40+ hours per week into academics, especially since I have my own choice of the classes I take. A completed MSEE from a state school is a lot more important to me than what classes are listed on the transcripts (please, take my honesty in consideration if you choose to criticize me for that). So, no DSP for me and thanks for the heads up!</p>

<p>As far as heisenberg012’s reply, even if it is true that BSEET+MSEE only qualifying me to work on the application side, I am still fine with that. I find many jobs that I’m interested in are application oriented but still list “BSEE or MSEE” in the requirements section. Since I get no replies from those jobs with my BSEET by itself, they are going to be my main target category after I graduate, not the research stuff that was mentioned. It seems to me that in not all but many cases the job requirements are set higher than what is actually required. Maybe it is because the employers try to reduce the chances of hiring a dummy by asking for advanced degrees? They can get away with that given the glut of qualified people on the market.</p>

<p>My current plan is to finish MSEE and have my hands dirty in C/Python/Matlab. Also, after graduation I will get PMP certificate (project management class to qualify for the test is a part of my MSEE degree plan), Six Sigma Black Belt (already have the project completed) and possibly take FE exam. Maybe sprinkle some Linux and Cisco certs on the top. Getting a job in these days is a job by itself, lol. If for some reason I hit a road block and can no longer complete MSEE, I will just switch to working on those certs anyway. Any comments or suggestions about this plan? </p>

<p>As far as taking an engineering position with my current employer, it still does not really excite me that much. Like I mentioned in my post above, transition from hourly to salary would mean a reduction in pay with more hours (at my job salaried folks do no less than 10 hours per day and are routinely asked to come in on their off days to work on a project). Also, the job itself does not even interest me. I could, however, try to switch into it after graduation just so I can carry the title on my resume and hunt for a new job while in that capacity. Maybe that would land me some better opportunities?</p>

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<p>Hello. Your BSEET is not actually what is holding you back. I was in a BSEE program, one course from graduation at a big name school and realized that I didn’t have the skill set that modern companies were wanting. To avoid loosing my pell grant and still not have a job I avoided graduating and transferred to a quality BSEET program which was ABET accredited. The difference was amazing. In labs I got my hands on all kinds of test equipment and learned a great deal about using integrated circuits in designs. The EE school did use a lot of math but the concepts were so outdated I basically could only work for an electrical utility company. Since I graduated I have encountered old guard engineers with pride in their engineering degree and older companies which would not hire BSEEs as engineers. I have also seen high level “technicians” whose pay blows away the salaried engineers on overtime. Incidentally those old style companies werent doing especially well.<br>
It sounds to me like your process engineering job may have been somewhat low level. It is what they needed and what your skill set qualified you for. Once you are employed after graduation companies seem to promote in baby steps. Process engineering can pay very well especially in companies on the leading edge. By the way if you feel you are up to the challenge there are MSEE schools that take BSEETs. Last I heard Oklahoma STATE university did. Just know that the BSEET is not what is specifically holding you back. I am aware of some companies that prefer BSEETs for their designers probably because of who the hiring manager is. Ultimately it is about who you know, what your provable skill set is, and what opportunities you can find. The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. </p>