My D would like to attend an LAC where the students are not crushed by their academic workload. Long time posters know that our high school kills the kids with hours upon hours of homework and time-consuming projects, so D does not want a repeat of sleeplessness if it can be avoided. Since she is nevertheless a serious student and plans a career in a field that does care somewhat about the name on the diploma, of course that desire for a reasonable workload has to be balanced with necessary rigor.
She has looked at those independent sites with student rankings and comments, but for the same school you can often find kids who say the workload is super intense and all they do is study, and others who claim the classes are easy and they are involved in lots of EC’s. The major might be the difference, obviously, but on one popular site the students actually comment by major and the same applies. She always asks the tour guides how they think their workload compares with that of friends at similar institutions, but has never gotten a great answer. They all say that you really need to study at their school, but it’s manageable.
I am leaning toward using ranking as a guide, but I have my doubts you can assume that the workload at a #25 school is necessarily more than that at a #35 school. We just visited a college where we heard the phrase “writing intensive” constantly. I’m thinking that means lots and lots of papers so she should ditch that one! Any other ways to tell?
You are asking a nearly impossible question. So much of what it takes to manage a workload is individual dependent. Different students might define time spent on academics differently. some might think 10hrs is a lot. Another might think 25 hrs is perfectly normal. Some students can write great papers without major re-writes. Another student may do multiple major edits before submitting. Both students might make the same grade. Could either one give an accurate answer to your question?
A better gauge might be to see if you can find syllabi online for courses your dd knows she is going to take. Or meet with the dept, sit in on a class, ask to see some syllabi.
Fwiw, I have never found a campus tour informative for more than dorms, food, and activities. Dept meetings, otoh, have been very informative and have either put schools higher on their list or completely knocked them off.
Unlike high school, colleges do not burden its students with “busy work”. Reasonable workload and necessary rigor tend to be mutually exclusive depending on one’s interpretation. For example, are you looking for a school where an English major will not be assigned too much reading or papers to write?
A Classics major can’t avoid a writing intensive curriculum. There will be a course comparing political thought and concepts of democracy in ancient Rome and Greece to the Enlightenment in Europe or contemporary USA; there will be a course tracing art, architecture, and visual design from the Parthenon to Brutalist buildings in cities today; there will be courses in Comedy and Tragedy: from Euripedes to Shakespeare.
These kinds of classes won’t have quizzes or multiple choice worksheets- they will involve research papers and potentially two day take-home exams.
I do think picking classes judiciously can help especially by talking to older students. Get a balance going every semester. Take a look at the required courses by major to get a view as to how many non-writing/research classes she can take and still fulfill her major.
This is really hard to get at. For example because I spoke fluent French wanted to take a course that would allow me to read. Once course had you read a volume of Proust’s work every single week, while others had you read half as much. As a French major I might have been stuck with one of the too much reading classes, but as someone who just wanted to take a class for fun, I could choose one with an easier pace.
My son took a fabulous course at Tufts his first year that is sometimes jokingly called a cult because the reading is so intense students end up having to divvy up some of it among themselves and give others a precis. (It’s an intensive summer with IR related themes, different every year, where different experts come each week and share their knowledge.)
The best class I ever took was a once a week seminar on Chinese art. We had a to write a short paper (3-5 pages) every week on the reading. It had the best class discussions because everyone had done the reading and thought about it as well.
Blossom, D is now leaning toward archaeology/classical archaeology, which might make a difference in the sort of work she will have. Regardless, of course she expects to have to write and research a lot; it’s college. Still, we have all heard that there are schools where the workload is just more intense than at other institutions at a comparable level. For example, Swarthmore has a reputation for intensity. She just wants to avoid those places because she wants to be able to attend lectures and other enriching events on campus.
I’m not sure why you think a LAC by definition has less of a workload than a university. Sometimes a LAC can be more intense since it is generally small discussion based classes (and you need to be prepared) as opposed to big lectures where students more sit and listen. And exams can be more writing based/less multiple-choice scantron based as there are fewer students to grade.
In addition one cannot reasonably assume that the workload at a #25 school is less than at a #35 school. First of all (I’m not a ranking person) those rankings are close enough that the two schools fall e in the same general category and attract pretty similar students. Maybe if you are looking at the #5 and #400 school one can make that assumption, but not in your example.
Often the workload is determined by the major, the professors, and the dedication of the individual student (ex. does he/she do all the work very well or let things slide).
Some things you can consider are:
How many classes/semester students take at the college? (it is 4 at some schools and 5 at others). The schools that have students taking 4 classes/semester generally have the classes meet longer but the workload can be easier to juggle with one less class.
Does the school have an intensive core curriculum? For some students the core covers topics that will be difficult for them at a college level.
^^^^Neither of the above will truly determine workload but they may play a role in it.
Also in HS you feel like you have to take the most honors/AP/IB classes you possibly can to maximize your college chances. In college, there is not this pressure to take all honors classes. It’s okay to start with regular biology or whatever. Need to repeat Calc? No problem…the curriculum is set up assuming you will take Calc 1, not Calc 3 as a freshman.
Accumulating ECs are also not as important. The ones you do would be targeted toward something you enjoy or your major.
Also she needs to make sure she balances her classes…don’t take two lab sciences on semester…don’t take a writing intensive course if that is not your thing…take some tough classes but balance with general electives.
Look for school where you daughter is not the top of the class (SAT scores/GPA), for then she will think it too easy nor where she is at the middle to bottom where she may struggle.
Oh, I don’t assume an LAC has a less intense workload at all and never said so. I just said she wants to attend an LAC. I am afraid of exactly what you are saying about the pressure of smaller classes, but she seems to prefer the smaller campuses.
I think your D needs to dig down into the programs of study at some of her chosen schools and see what’s required. If archeology requires history, sociology, etc in addition to some more STEM classes then she won’t be able to avoid writing at a lot of schools. Agree with above that if you don’t won’t to write a lot, then larger schools are more likely to have MC tests and fewer papers at least at intro level classes. Chances are she will learn to write and after a while have a 3-5 page paper is a one day thing.
I would strongly consider picking a school where your D’s stats put her in the top percentage - it may be that kids that seem to study all the time at some schools (aside from different study styles) is that they are the ones that are average for that school.
Maybe if you could throw out names of schools she is considering, someone here can comment directly on study time. However at end of day, as someone noted, it is subjective. D went to LAC that got ranked at one point during her time as one where students spend the most time out of class studying. She didn’t feel overburdened and was involved in lots of stuff outside class.
“My D would like to attend an LAC where the students are not crushed by their academic workload. Long time posters know that our high school kills the kids with hours upon hours of homework and time-consuming projects, so D does not want a repeat of sleeplessness”
it was no sleeplessness in HS in my D’s case. I had only 2 rules at home and one of them was - in bed by 10pm, right after her daily sport practice. However, I saw her doing only AP English Lit and college US History that she took while in HS. The homework for other classes she did at school. Anyway, her college workload was many fold higher and at the higher academic level than the HS workload. D. said that she was shocked that she had to step up so much in academic efforts at college after graduating #1 from private HS which is known as the most rigorous in our area. More so, she said that those valedictorians (most in her Honors college that had 200 students were HS valedictorians) who did not realize that they have to step up in efforts simply got derailed from their initial track. For references, D. attended at in-state public, not any highly ranked, elite college.
Overall, we do not believe in sleeplessness, it is counterproductive. So, D. slept enough at college and she also continued having tons of unrelated ECs and had 2 minors, overall ECs exceeded even the amount in HS. But she was not alone in that, college students like to be busy, I guess.
With great time management skills, the sky is the limit! best wishes!
Right now she has these schools on her list: Albright (but for a self-designed major in arts management/art history/classics, not archaeology) Montclair State, Drew University, Connecticut College, Dickinson, Franklin & Marshall, Bryn Mawr, and possibly Holy Cross and Fordham. At some of these she’d major in anthropology but with some archaeology classes.
So much depends on the student and how well developed the study habits are. Another large factor is the course selection. Usually within course requirements there is a range of courses that can be taken. By picking an easier courses, one can balance the workload to be manageable.
Ditto on the impossibility of predicting a workload. She should make her first priority the curriculum in proposed majors. Decades later she will have no regrets for choosing her college.
Is her intention to immerse herself in an area of study or to get a degree along with a fun college life? After an intense HS she may be afraid of more of the same. However, getting to study interesting subjects instead of pushing for tough classes in all fields is so different. Is she the type of person who can lose herself in a book or doing something that fascinates her? At which college does she feel most like she could be up until dawn shooting the breeze with fellow students? Once she figures out the shorter list of schools with the most to offer academically she needs to feel comfortable. Right now she may feel like backing off a lot with intensity but she may discover a passion for her chosen field and want to be with others who feel the same.
Some flexibility is also needed. She may discover a different passion once she is in college. She needs to be able to deviate from today’s path without too much trouble. Her future is not cast in stone.
Since I’m not from your region none of these schools mean anything to me. But she will be able to rank them in two main areas- academic programs she prefers and college life. The number of hours spent studying will depend on courses chosen and number of credits per semester.
D is taking a writing intensive course this semester because her first-year seminar prof suggested she do so (writing has never been her strong suit). It turns out to be a lot of little papers. Like 2 pagers, but every week.
Different than a couple of 20 page research papers a semester - not easier or harder, but different.
Well, my D - also a bit burned out academically from her competitive high school district - addressed this very issue by applying to smaller state (directional) schools that had the programs she is interested in pursuing, but also were not super selective for admissions.
(I also originally steered her to LACs, but she can’t get past the small atmosphere at them…)
My D is also interested in Anthropology, Archaeology, and Classics… One thing we found by perusing two of the state schools’ websites, is that, for those majors, around 100 or fewer undergrads were majoring in them. Even fewer for Classics… So, class sizes will be smaller, especially for higher-level courses, and I’m guessing most of the students will know each other and their professors, and vice versa.
So, even at some mid-sized state schools, you may have smaller classes because these are not the “hot” majors right now for many of the students there… (or maybe they are, but every kid I talk to besides my D wants to major in Computer Science, Biology, or Business…)
And since they are not huge graduate research universities, almost all classes are taught by professors, and most of these professors went to very good schools, some of them to Ivies.
Fwiw, writing lots of papers is not the same as busywork for it’s own sake, imo. Writing papers and essays is a very valuable skill, and one of the things a good undergrad LAS program should emphasize. So, I would not shy away from any school emphasizing that. Besides, your D is probably well prepared to start writing college papers at this point; especially at the less-selective schools you mentioned, where there will be students with lower test scores and from less-competitive high schools.
Another thing I told my D is to ease into college by taking only 12 credit hours the first year, and not working yet, or joining too many clubs, etc.
As others have noted, it will depend on the student and classes taken. Some kids can churn out 20 page papers that are very good easily. Others will take a lot more time to write a shorter paper. Seems to me best way would be to talk with kids at each of the schools she is considering and ask them what their class load is like. And also ask them how much time they spent working on class work in high school. Your daughter could then compare the colleges and how much time kids spent versus high school. Won’t be perfect because different high schools will be different and different kids will handle different classes differently and different college profs presumably hand out different levels of work (a lot of differents there… lol). But should give at least an idea.
One thing: Don’t get hung up on the term “writing intensive”. It means different things different places, and it’s more of a buzzword than anything else. It’s often used simply to mark courses that fit a particular curricular niche, since employers have made it clear to higher ed that writing skills are important no matter what field a student’s in, and so colleges can market themselves to employers by saying they have writing intensive courses. It doesn’t necessarily mean a seven-page paper twice a week the whole semester, though.
For concrete definitions, here’s the way the term was used at three different colleges I’ve worked at: At one, it indicated a course with at least two research papers of a length appropriate to the level of the course (as defined by the department or the instructor, depending). At another, it indicated a course that included a writing component even though the subject mightn’t lead you to expect one (e.g., a math course involving geometric proofs in which students also had to translate those proofs into completely readable, non-technical language directed at readers of various math backgrounds—an exercise I heard that lots of math education majors found incredibly useful, by the way). And at the third, it was very rigidly defined as a course where each student produced at least 6,000 words of edited non-fiction prose over the course of the semester.
So basically, it means whatever an institution wants it to mean.
D is not afraid of hard work, but is concerned about being able to succeed academically at the school she chooses. Frankly, her high school experience lately has undermined her confidence. In an environment like ours, it’s hard to definitively separate out what difficulty is due to your personal ability and what’s due to the nature of the system. Also, she would like to continue her sports if possible, but does not want a high intensity athletic experience. She’d probably like to attend Bryn Mawr, Conn, or Dickinson. Bryn Mawr, for example, is ranked highly in her field and in general, and I think she can get in (esp. with athletics). It is also closest to us. But I wonder if it would be too heavy an academic load for her. Given she is an athlete, she will most likely be asked to go ED at most of the schools on her list, so we have to actually take a risk and make a choice rather than wait to see who chooses her. Coaches are already starting to ask her to come for an unofficial athletic visit (which will entail missing school), so there will be some pressure soon to narrow down the options.
College English is not hard for everybody. The Honors English was one of the easiest of D’s college classes, but very time consuming. It was a waste of time for her, learned nothing, wasted tons of time reading boring novels. D. writes easily and can compose her paper in her head while doing something else. She learned doing that in HS with the tons of ECs, she had to do it. Thank goodness, D. needed only one semester of English to complete the requirement of her major.
Somebody mentioned the balanced schedule. I second this. D’s rule was only 2 hard classes / semester, the rest were easy. It worked!