How Colleges Are Selling Out the Poor to Court the Rich (Atlantic)

Parents Forum
101

<p>What I would like to accomplish, honestly, is probably not even possible.</p>

<p>What I would like to see is the above average impoverished student who has been able to navigate all the hardship that goes with poverty and still do well in school, not elite well, but flaghship, or even directional U well, be able to afford college with no more than the pell and the staffords. </p>

<p>I think in order to understand my perspective, it’s important, also, for me to say I am currently in Illinois, which colors my perspective of the way the money is currently being used.</p>

<p>If using the pell money would actually, as the article in the OP suggests, make it possible for all students currently attending publics to do so for free, I would just have to be in favor of this. Right now there is a very grim reality for impoverished students in our state. It doesn’t fit with my own personal vision of what I would like to see.</p>

<p>That and 5 bucks will get me a latte.</p>

102

<p>The Federal aid budget (Pell, SEOG, work study) is $38B/year. There are 15.5M students attending public colleges. </p>

<p>$38B/15.5M = $2,451.61/student. So, no, this is not enough for everyone to go to public college for free. It barely makes a dent, especially in places like IL and PA where the flagship prices have gone sky high.</p>

103

<p>It would not go to every student. There would still be those who would go to private schools, and there would still be full pays at the publics There would just be more money freed up to those with need in the publics. I’m also including the money out there that is allowing these federally backed loans It don’t think it’ s PELL, SEOG and work study that is driving up the cost of college. They don’t amount to enough. It’s those loans.</p>

104

<p>Would you agree to limit Pell loans to students with certain grades and test scores? At present, it doesn’t seem to be enough to cover the cost of education. Many students take Pell loans, don’t graduate, yet amass much debt. </p>

<p>Our local public colleges list low tuition, but have very high fees. The net cost at a private can be lower than the full net cost at a public. </p>

<p>There are also different sorts of merit aid. State merit aid is not the same thing as institutional merit aid. [Price</a> of Admission: Shift to Merit Scholarships Stirs Debate - WSJ.com](<a href=“Price of Admission: Shift to Merit Scholarships Stirs Debate - WSJ”>Price of Admission: Shift to Merit Scholarships Stirs Debate - WSJ)</p>

105

<p>Here are a few numbers to chew on!</p>

<p>The Pell program offers grants, and not loans. In 2016, the maximum grant will be 5,970 dollars.</p>

<p>An estimated 9.7 million students are expected to receive Pell Grants in 2013, nearly double the number in 2006. About 25 percent of students get a full Pell. Pell Grant program reached $38.2 billion in fiscal year 2012 from $16.5 billion in 2008. The math is pretty simple; use 10 million students and weigh 2,500,000 at 100 percent. </p>

<p>Specifically, for the school years 2008-09 and 2009-10, the number of students receiving a Pell Grant increased by 13 percent and 27 percent, respectively. By comparison, increases in the four prior years never exceeded five percent</p>

<p>==============
In 1980, the Pell Grant covered 69 percent of the costs.</p>

<p>In 1987-88, the $2,100 maximum Pell Grant, awarded to students with no financial capacity to pay for college, covered 50 percent of tuition and fees and room and board charges at the average public four-year college or university and 20 percent of average total charges at private four-year institutions.</p>

<p>Ten years later, the $2,700 maximum Pell Grant covered 36 percent of total charges in the public sector and 14 percent in the private sector. In 2007-08, the $4,310 maximum Pell Grant equals 32 percent of the average published price at four-year public institutions and 13 percent at the average four-year private college or university.</p>

<p>From 1985 to 2012, the combined cost of college tuition and fees has gone up by about 559 percent, leading to outstanding student loan debt that, by some estimates, has cleared $1 trillion. As colleges have kept on increasing their costs, financial aid has failed to keep up.</p>

106

<p>To the person who asked a few pages ago, Boston College in the 80s was in the vanguard of using merit aid at a private college. They did it out of desperation when they almost went bankrupt. They were so successful with that effort that BC now uses hardly any merit aid anymore. Many other privates have followed BC’s high sticker/high discount model. </p>

<p>The market for college is completely distorted. Only the market for health care is more screwed up. Like in health care, there’s massive subsidies and redistribution of money among different types of students – rich, poor, in-state, out-of-state, smart, dumb, recruited athletes, etc. etc. etc.</p>

<p>College is expensive for the bottom 99.5% of income families. Those families are free to pick a school where their kid will be on the receiving end or the paying end of a deal.</p>

107

<p>I know some publics that did the same, Northwesty. Once upon a time, Pitt gave out a lot of very nice awards to those over a certain SAT score and guaranteed Honors College admissions. No more. The % of awards has dropped drastically, and you have to apply for both the awards and admissions to the Honors College with test score cut offs far higher than the automatic ones from days of yore. </p>

<p>Our system actually has a good base IMO. For those families with the lowest incomes, there is PELL which are pure grants. The full PELL will cover most community college, local state school tuitions, so those kids can continue commuting to school as they were to high school. As family incomes, rise, the PELL decreases. The next layer of aid comes in the guaranteed Stafford loans which most any freshman can take in the amount of $5500 that first year, with the first $3500 subsidized if there is need. Those who do not qualify for any need, can still take out that full amount, which is similar to the PELL max, and will cover most community college, and state local tuitions. </p>

<p>Where I live, there are a lot of options for those who want to go to school within those parameters. Plus our state throws in some money for those who earn under $80K a year on a graduated basis. </p>

<p>But that is not the case for everyone. Where I used to live, and where I have friends living the community college choices are terrible, and there are no local state schools within an easy commutable distance. Anyone trying to navigate those horrible cc systems will be totally frustrated. When people like myself and others knowledgeable, persistent, organized and informed can’t make much headway, what can one expect from 18 year olds without good adult guidance? I’d like to see these schools shored up as they really should be serving more of the population well. These schools should be fully integrated with 4 year state schools so that transfers can occur smoothly, and be well stocked with the necessary preparatory courses as well as those courses to transition to a four year school with good counselors provided and clarity. For those who want to get a certificate or terminal AA degree, that should be made possible, and for those who want to go on, a clear path be provided. This is not the case in too many cases.</p>

<p>Then there is the situation of what one can do when one finishes with a two year school. Okay, so you went to community college, and now there are no local state schools within commutable distance. The state schools all cost $25K+ including room and board, and they don’t meet full need. In fact, very few state schools meet full need. Right now these kids have it rough. Where the heck are they supposed to get the money to finish school? </p>

<p>As far as I am concerned, those who make junior standing at the college level, can get some more aid as needed. I’d like to see increased funding for those who get there, and have no local public options. </p>

<p>I feel that is a priority over and beyond benefitting those kids who are getting federal aid for sleep away schools and for privates, many of whom are also borrowing due to federal backing of school loans (no sane lender would give a dime without this backing) and getting themselves into a lot of financial trouble. I’d like to see the money strengthening and expanding the public sector when it comes to education, and yes, there are bad eggs in the bunch , bad situations, such as the PSU scandals, but I want that strengthened. For top students or those who have attributes that privates want, they can pay for them out of their own funds with merit money, If there is so little money out there in terms of SEOG, PELL, Work study, Loan subsidies, well, then not so much being lost anyways from the privates. I don’t see federal money for private schools K-12. Why suddenly do we subsidize private education when the kids graduate from high school? This has fueled a lot of the “gotta go away to school”, “gotta borrow to pay for a pricey sleep away option family can’t afford”.</p>

108

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<p>When you make community colleges good and affordable, you wind up rationing courses. Our daughter’s CC is pretty good but there are some popular or required courses that are hard to get into. It is very hard to get a hold of anyone in admissions or enrollment when they open up course enrollment. Good and inexpensive services bring in a lot of students in a tough economy.</p>

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<p>You get a full-time job and take courses part-time where you pay by the credit.</p>

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<p>Another option might be to allow community colleges to teach a junior year that would transfer. It would solve the geographical problem for one more year.</p>

109

<p>So you finish CC and you need to find a full time job near some four year college. Therein lies the problem. If you are from a low income family, the chances of being able to find a job that makes it possible to relocate within an affordable 4 year college is a problem. Around here, very possible. Remember, some of these kids are going to cc because there is NO 4 year college in the area to which they can commute. You’ve exhausted what your locale can provide for you. Which leads to the fact that we now have a student who has satisfactorially completed a 2 year program, has junior standing, and has no place nearby where he can get the next two years. Family can provide the 3 squares and the cot but not much more and that translates into $5-12K easily in expense. Most schools offer little money for transfers in fin aid and in scholarships. I think that loans at this point are not a bad investment for such a student. Someone who is 18 and has no track record at college, and many of these kids have less than stellar high school test scores–for them to take out huge loans strapping their parents and themselves is ludicrous. But someone who has completed his AA, and is ready to get his 4 year degree, that’s a whole other story. And yes, there needs to be a lot of counseling and transfer support. One more year at a junior college is not going to help either. Just pushes the problem to the next year, and if services and quality at the CCs are made so much better, there is going to be more of a demand for them, I’m willing to bet, as you note. </p>

<p>There will be a lot of growing pains to get this in place.</p>

110

<p>The whole idea of taking the money away from the privates is to shore up and expand the CCs so that there will be as little rationing of courses as possible. That and cancellation of courses for not enough in a section were two major problems in the areas in the midwest where I experienced the horrible Community colleges. It would take 4-5 years for students, and those are the ones who were stalwart enough to stick it out to finish programs or get an AA simply because of course rationing, and phantom courses. My friends daughters would sign up for a slate of courses only to have them all be cancelled. Or come to find that the courses are full on the registration day from those waitlisted from the semester before. A lot of the community colleges are unable to fulfil the demands and needs of their community right now. That is where I want to see the money funnelled.</p>

111

<p>About 10% of Pell dollars are spent at non-profit privates, so they are fairly insignificant to the discussion. </p>

<p>About 25% of Pell dollars go to for-profit privates.</p>

<p>If you limit Pell grants to use at public schools, then most of those dollars will just be used by the same students to attend public schools. This will put additional financial burden on the public school system. It will not help public schools, and it won’t help poor students.</p>

112

<p>I believe that it may make more sense to plot $ amount rather than % of student getting merit and need based scholarship in the Atlantic article. The tuition increases so much over the years. Even maintaining the % of student for need based award is amazing. The merit award is probably small compared to the need based scholarship especially at private colleges. Many schools are under pressure to compete for the top students. Merit award is the primary means for achieving that goal.</p>

113

<p>‘They are taking massive subsidized loans from the federal government, moving money from the government to the pockets of the institution, to later be paid by the student. Their Pell Grants are going into the pockets of the same institutions.’</p>

<p>Mini, I’m really interested in knowing the sources your allegations are based on, as this is related to my current research. Thanks.</p>

114

<p>‘The higher education lobby has done its part to try to keep the public and policymakers in the dark — fighting tooth and nail against any and all government efforts to shine a light on their institutional aid practices. This may at least help explain the vehemence with which private college lob- byists attacked the Bush administration’s proposal to track the educational progress of individual students through a federal unit-record database.136 It was also undoubtedly, behind lobbyists’ successful efforts to stop Congress, dur- ing the last reauthorization of the Higher Education Act, from requiring colleges to report net price data for wealthy students who do not receive federal financial aid.’ P31</p>

<p>Thanks for starting this very important discussion and highlighting the in-depth research!</p>

115

<p>I’m still wondering why while it’s so good to redistribute wealth from rich people to the poor, the same concept doesn’t apply to rich and poor schools. If Harvard makes over a billion a year, what’s wrong in it being made to part with, say 40% of that to help out poorer schools and their students?</p>

116

<p>Hear, hear! The foundation charter document of Amherst College, granted by the Commonwealth, states that their purpose is to educate ‘indigent young men of good character’.</p>

117

<p>^^Meanwhile, Amherst is in the process of demolishing every dormitory built between the end of WWII and 1965 - nearly a third of its beds - because it doesn’t like how they look:
[url=&lt;a href=“YouTube”&gt;YouTube]YouTube[/url</a>]</p>

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<p>I agree.
We should restrict businesses from doing what they feel they need to do- if it is wasteful of money/resources.</p>

119

<p>How do you know that the reason for the demolition is because Amherst “doesn’t like how they look”?</p>

<p>I’ve experienced a number of home renovations and know that it is cheaper & faster to start from scratch than to retrofit. A lot of buildings from that period do not have the energy efficiency standards of later construction.</p>

120

<p>^^Take another look at that YouTube clip. That does not look like a structurally infirm building. Rather, the truth is far more convoluted than either superficial looks or bad plumbing. The so-called “social dorms”, the latest to fall victim to the wrecker’s ball, have been controversial from the beginning, built as a way of mimicking the privacy to be found in fraternity houses which were legal until 1984:

<a href=“http://acvoice.com/2012/10/27/finding-a-way-forward-in-context/[/url]”>http://acvoice.com/2012/10/27/finding-a-way-forward-in-context/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;