<p>How come know one knows about this place? During my plebe year, I went to New York city, and everyone thought we are from Naval Academy. But, when we told them we are going to Merchant Marine Academy, they don't know what it is. I felt so F****** bad. We are working our butt off to serve our nation but people doesn't recognize who we are.</p>
<p>i know who you guys are… <em>smiles of gratitude</em></p>
<p>TLS… get over it buddy.
we’re highly under appreciated, and that’s ok.
wait till you go to sea. you’ll realize there’s not a lot of re-affirmation out there either. you do it because you know it’s the right thing to do and that it’s worth it, not for someone to pat you on the back and say “that’a boy”
if that’s what you’re looking for, you’re in the wrong field.
there are great things to be said for being an unsung hero.</p>
<p>You are not “under appreciated.” In fact, you will be appreciated in the form of BIG DOLLARS when you graduate. This hardly qualifies as “serving the nation.” [Yes, you may serve a port in Iraq that is technically in a battle zone, but, in that regard, you are no different than a KBR contractor who is being paid six times what a soldier is being paid to perform a similar function. You will be paid well to master–well, not technicallyh master since that is the capt’s job-- that ship into a harbor.]</p>
<p>For at least one-half of MMA graduates, [the ones who take employment with private shipping companies] this is VERY different than graduates from other service academies, who will make ab out 30,000 at graduation. For the one-third [approx guess] of MMA who elect to serve active duty, you will be appreciated for “serving your country.” [When you write to lambaste the post, remember that I am acknowledgeing w/ great gratitude that a significant number of graduates elect to serve active duty.] </p>
<p>For the others, get over it. You have received a relatively free education that sets you up for a great job. [And I think serving in the reserves does not compare exactly to being active duty in terms of hardships.] </p>
<p>While at school, you are not serving anybody; in fact, you are a sponge, living off the fat of the land. [How much tuition did you pay last year?]</p>
<p>So, for you to sit and write a message that implies others should bestow gratitude and/or recognition upon you comparable to that given to others who attend service academies, well, it just doesn’t read right.</p>
<p>The MMA is somewhat adrift in terms of mission.<br>
The U.S. marine industry [the seagoing component at least, not the dockside component] is virtually non-existent. MMA could probably disappear tomorrow and the domestic industry wouldn’t even notice. Allocate budget to the other maritime academies and the industry would not notice. Allocate budget and numerical strength based on number of graduates who go active duty to the other to the other Academis and the armed forces wouldn’t notice either. </p>
<p>Is that going to happen? No. So, be happy the MMA continues to chug along and that you will be able to cliaim graduation from there. THEN, when you get your big time maritime-related job, making six figures, come back and tell us how much you are suffering.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>HA! Lots of responsibility, working hard all the time, little appreciation - Sounds like motherhood. Oh, but one more thing - no pay for motherhood!!!</p>
<p>Bill, I agree with you completely. I love how so many people try to make the stretch that sailing in the merchant marine is “serving the nation.” That is hardly the case. The only thing it serves is your bank account. Sailing is a job like anything else. I would probably liken the “service to the nation” factor on par with mail men. Its a job, like any other. No one comes to KP to sail because they want to “serve the nation”. For those that want to sail, they come because its a good education, its free, and you have excellent job placement. </p>
<p>On the other hand, those that are going active duty are a different case. </p>
<p>And don’t try to go on about the reserve component. For those that do not choose SELRES, your reserve “commitment” amounts to basically a 2 week paid vacation every year, with some variation in your AT.</p>
<p>Eh, Bill…pretty condescending post, can’t really agree with you. </p>
<p>Sure KP grads make good money shipping out, but many of the jobs filled are directly benefiting the American people. </p>
<p>Examples…MSC: ships cannot operate without food/fuel/ammo…no food/fuel/ammo no dead pirates.</p>
<p>Tankers: Doesn’t the US consume the most amount of oil in the world?</p>
<p>I think the point here is defining serving the nation…Is one not serving the nation in a gov’t position if they are getting paid 100k a year to do so? Or do you need an active duty ID card? I do not think your argument is sound and I definitely did not appreciate the way in which it was said. </p>
<p>Oh and by the way…I’m going active duty.</p>
<p>Davy,</p>
<p>Its just a job. I find very hard to believe that people join the merchant marine to serve our nation. If that’s the case, using the same logic you were using, truck drivers are right in the same category. Yeah, you can argue that any job is serving the nation. My dad is a doctor, he helps people get better, so he to is “serving our nation.” Also you cannot compare active duty military and the merchant marines, at least not any more. Maybe in 1942, but definitely not now. Besides, do you think the crews of the ship’s really care what they are carrying? It makes no difference to them if they are carrying new Lexus’s to the U.S. or tanks to Kuwait.</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong…I love what KP does and I think the U.S. Merchant Marine is essential, but don’t try to make it something it is not. My ego doesn’t require me to feel more appreciated. If people don’t get it, then oh well. </p>
<p>btw, I am also going active duty after sailing (“serving the nation”) for 8 months and making as much money as possible</p>
<p>Bill said: "[And I think serving in the reserves does not compare exactly to being active duty in terms of hardships.] "</p>
<p>Ask Lt.Toner’s family if serving in the reserves is not a hardship. Lt. Toner was serving in the reserves as part of his commitment for his “free” education. End of rant.</p>
<p>[Honor</a> the fallen: Navy Lt. j.g. Francis L. Toner IV](<a href=“http://www.militarycity.com/valor/4013491.html]Honor”>http://www.militarycity.com/valor/4013491.html)</p>
<p>LCDR Patrick J. Murphy, USNR, of suburban Chicago, Illinois, was identified as one of the victims of the September 11th terrorist attack on the Pentagon. A member of the Naval Reserve, LCDR Murphy was performing a three-week assignment with the Navy Command Center, was standing duty when the attack occurred.</p>
<p>Patrick is survived by his wife of 15 years, Masako Murphy; his two children, Mitchell, 6, and Casey, 3; and his mother, Joan Miller of Glenwood, Illinois.</p>
<p>I can’t think of a more difficult “hardship.”</p>
<p>Sorry guys, serving in the reserves does not produce the same hardships as serving on active duty. Yes, members of the reserves can still be killed during their active duty periods; however, so can active duty members so you have to compare the other factors.</p>
<p>There are reasons why reserve retirements are different than active duty and if being in the Reserves produced an equal number of “hardships” don’t you think they would be equal?</p>
<p>Certain “active duty” posts can be relatively easy; anecdotal evidence does not prove or disprove anything.</p>
<p>“Most” reservists [well, maybe “many”] reservists serve relatively easy [taht would be relative to active duty] assignments. [Granted, under current conditions, Army reservists do not fit this description under many, many circumstnaces.] Do “some” reservists serve in dangerous assignments? Absolutely. Do some of them serve voluntarily and, temporarily, as active duty; perhaps. Teh fact remains that a MMA graduat can [and it could probably be stated that frequently] does satisfy his/her obligation w/out EVER serving in a forward position that places them in harm’s way or in any sort of active duty assignment. The same cannot be said of most graduates from the other academies.</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with the arrangement. This is the deal currently in place between MMA graduates and the American public. More power to those who benefit from attending the MMA; they have nothing for which they should b eashamed. Just don’t equate the “service” that MOST MMA graduates provide with that provided by MOST graduates fo teh other academis. While both services contribute to the well-being of the country, it is difficult [really, “impossible”] to equate the two “services.”</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Couldn’t agree more.</p>
<p>oops- wrong post!</p>
<p>Bill, KP2001, and USMMA2009 -</p>
<p>1) Particular individuals who’ve paid the ultimate price aside, today the Reserves and National Gaurd in many ways are having it harder than those on active duty. There’s LOTS of DOD data to support this statement concerning ops tempo, etc.</p>
<p>2) Diplaying a total lack of understanding for the basic underlying mission of USMMA, and/or Federal support of State Maritime Academies, doesn’t make your broad, sweeping statements any less stupid than they are inflamitory.</p>
<p>3) Resenting someone just because he or she can make a very good income doing something important and contributory to society? I guess we’ll put USMMA and State Maritime Academy grads into the same class as the surgeon who can put you together and save your life after you’re in a car accident or like life threatening circumstances. DOT and Transportation Research Board data suggests that at least 1 in 7 jobs in the USA today is tied to a healthy and vital transportation industry, the Maritime component of which is as important to the healh of as it is to the ability to project power globally. Go look up how many C-17 flights it takes to put an Armoured Division somewhere, let alone sustain them and compare that to how many Ship’s transits it takes to do the same. Sure the guys are well paid - there’s 20 of them on that ship, how many airmen does it take to keep 3, 4, or 5 C-17’s flying? It’s called economics and the flavor is capitalism - we live in the USA and I’m glad we are both a freely elected democracy and our economic system is capitalism. I’m also glad we have well qualified and trained men and women in the Maritime industry. Go look at the $$$ per graduate the US spends on each graduate of KP vs. each West Point, Annapolis and/or USAFA graduate - once again the economics work - believe me there’s been folks looking at this for decades.</p>
<p>If you serve on active duty - I thank you for your service and mean no disrespect but don’t for a minute think that is the only important job America needs done. We need our way of life protected by the military and we all should be grateful for those who do so. However, let’s not belittle the improtance of other who contribute to the building and continued operation of a strong national economy that enables all of us to live in relative oppulance.</p>
<p>Thank you for putting me in the same class as Bill, I consider that quite the compliment.</p>
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<p>I’m going to assume this was in response to what I posted, so I will leave the rest of the post alone and respond to this. I will still stand by my assertion that being on active duty makes for more hardships than reserve duty. If you have “LOTS of DOD data” then post some links, and I’ll be more than happy to respond to them. Are there “outlyers” in both categories, sure, but let’s look at it on a whole.</p>
<p>Just one example that I was talking about today with someone: moving every 1-3 years. I’m currently active duty and in the past 2.1 years I have moved (PCS) 3 times. And not short moves either, NE to SE to NW. Now explain how a spouse is to 1)get and 2)keep a job with that schedule to add on to the fun of moving. </p>
<p>(I was going to avoid responding as I initially thought you were a ■■■■■, but seeing your posting history I see you’re an '82 grad so figured I would instead respond. As an aside it’s always nice to keep debate civil, no need to call people idiots even when you disagree with their positions)</p>
<p>KP2001 - Fair enough, wrong turn of phrase I apologize, you are definately not an idiot. That said I now understand you to be a Navy Physician so I find it hard to believe you are unaware of data and reports that say the current Ops Tempo and activation pace and duration on the Gaurd and Reserve associated with the on-going GWOT isn’t putting excessive strain on our military and their families - regardless of whether they are Active Duty, apparently like yourself, or are in the national guard or reserve components. In any case the studies and reports that I’ve followed, read and base my opinions on are on a trail that starts with a 2003 GAO report to the Senate and House Armed Serivice committees here: <a href=“http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d031004.pdf[/url]”>http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d031004.pdf</a>. </p>
<p>Following that trail will lead you to items such as a 2006 AIR COMMAND AND STAFF COLLEGE - AIR UNIVERSITY paper/theseis by an LTC that is titled “EFFECTS OF OPERATIONS TEMPO ON MOBILITY PILOT RETENTION IN THE RESERVE COMPONENTS” approved for public release and available on the www at: <a href=“https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_543ac657-850d-4066-b0ac-16391c5b3b92/display.aspx?rs=enginespage[/url]”>https://www.afresearch.org/skins/rims/q_mod_be0e99f3-fc56-4ccb-8dfe-670c0822a153/q_act_downloadpaper/q_obj_543ac657-850d-4066-b0ac-16391c5b3b92/display.aspx?rs=enginespage</a>. Interestigly one of the statemetns in that paper whic I wholeheartedly agree with is: “Many people have traditionally thought of Guard and Reserve pilots as “weekend warriors” and that they would only be called to active duty after all other options had been exhausted. This is clearly not the case.” The paper goes on to provide data to support this statement, it further chronicles and explains “While serving the Air Force, the part-timers must also factor in their family. Many issues effect families. Temporary Duty (TDY) and mobilizations result in family separations. This separation can be stressful for both the member and the spouse. Mobilizations may also affect health care benefits and monthly income.” It gives details as to what that means and while active duty PCS every three years or so during their careers I would tell you in many instanes the lack of a similar support network for NG and Reservists who are activated and have their family lives impacted to a degree and frequency as the current GWOT causes, in some cases more so for certain career specialists, is something that current GAO, DOD and other studies have been completed on and are ongoing in response to Congressional Enquiries. I’d expect over the next 12 months, now that the NG is led by a 4 star general, these items will be better addressed and even more data will become available.</p>
<p>In response to your question " Just one example that I was talking about today with someone: moving every 1-3 years. I’m currently active duty and in the past 2.1 years I have moved (PCS) 3 times. And not short moves either, NE to SE to NW. Now explain how a spouse is to 1)get and 2)keep a job with that schedule to add on to the fun of moving. " If I make a leap here and suppose you are younger than I - say late 20’s/early thirties while I’m 49 I will tell you this situation isn’t unique to active duty military. I have had a 27 year Post KP career that has been pretty successful. To put that in motion I worked hard, took opportunities and moved frequently early in my career. In fact we got married in 1988 and between 1987 when we got engaiged and 1996 - nine years later - we moved 5 times. I’m not complaing, I’m just giving you the basis for my answers and letting you know you don’t have to be on active duty to move around alot for your career. In fact I’ll tell you over half the Kings Pointers I know move around the world more post graduation than most other folks. It’s part of what makes us who we are and as successful as we are.</p>
<p>In our case we had some mitigating factors - 1) My wife is a nurse and finding employment in that career field isn’t as hard as finding employment in many others. However like you we dealt with the stress and disatisfaction that uprooting yourselves from a job you like at a place you’re happy with, and a social group (Church, etc.) you’ve just gotten to know and vice-versa and being “the trailing spouse” causes. 2) We tried the I’ll go first and commute thing once - it didn’t work well for both of us during the early stages of our marriage at all so we made a concious effort and some accomodations, she never had to work where she didn’t like it wen we did these moves and if that meant tightening our belts and living on one income for a few months while she got settled that’s what we did. She also picked all houses, churches and schools regardless of what advice I might get form folks I worked with. There were others but I’m sure you understand and are doing similar things. During those 9 years we sacrificed thigs so my career could move as quickly as possible though.
3)The end result is/was that in 1996 with our son entering first grade we made a concious decision to try and make our next move one of our last and to a place and position that would slow things down abit as far as relocation. That worked but again not without sacrifices. For two stints of almost two years a piece (mid 1998-mid 2000) and (early 2005 - late 2006) I traveled alot and basically lived away from our home here in VA in apartments my then employer provided me for as long as 8 weeks at a time. In one case in Turkey and another in NYC. Doing this allowed me to keep my career going without causing our family to move, don’t get me wrong we talked about it but it didn’t happen and at this point I’m glad - for us we made the right choices.</p>
<p>Bottom line from my perspective - we all make compromises and sacrifices to do something we want and achieve our goals. Me and my family did and it sounds like you and your family are too. I thank you for your service but I also have to believe you get a feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment out of it, like most all folks I know who pursue Active Duty Miulitary Careers do to. I don’t begrudge you those feelings or think any less of your sacrifices because you get that sense of accomplishment. I also don’t belittle the impacts and sacrifices on others who might be doing so as Gaurdsman or Reservists and I took exception to the way you characterized their contribution to our national defense. If you want more data or links I’ll galdly send them individually but I wouldn’t want to be condescending again so if you’d like to find them yourself I’d google search with keywords “DOD Data Stress On Reservists Ops Tempo” or similar.</p>
<p>No I’'m not a ■■■■■ nor do I think you are else I wouldn’t have gone on this far. if you are a ■■■■■ like I think the kid who started this thread is - then you got me and I hope you have a good belly laugh. Trust me when I say you don’t want to google search “DOD Data Stress Reservists Suicide Rates” or “DOD Data Stress Divorce Rate” statisitcs which apparently ahppily held steady in 2007/2008 at just 3.3% per DoD (active, Guard and Reserve" -I highlight this because if it’s only about data and not about people/anecdotes then you can make the case the military (all services - Active, Guard and Reserve) doesn’t put stress on the family unit apparently any more than civilian life since the divorce rate doesn’t seem too bad. Before you blast me - I don’t believe that or share that view for a minute.</p>
<p>Thanks again and good luck in all you do.</p>
<p>I’ll have to flip through some of the links you give for the real data: believe me, I understand the op tempo of various units and subsets in the military.</p>
<p>As to the moving, the reason I use that is because those in the civilian sector have a choice to pursue their career by moving or can quit at anytime. Those on active duty do not have this choice (they made their bed when they signed on the dotted line.) You have to compare reservist vs active duty moves as those are the two categories we are debating here.</p>
<p>I would also recommend stepping back from the immediate optempo and instead look at what a 20 year career for a reservist looks like vs what a 20 year career for an active duty person looks like. They are way different and this is why I say an active duty person has more hardships than a reservist. Prior to this war starting when was the last time a Guard or Reserve unit was called up to do OCONUS work? During that time the active duty folks were still going on 6 mos deployments, still doing all the exercises away from home, still going to Kosovo/Somalia/etc. The reservists were for the most part were continuing their weekend a month/two weeks a year routine.</p>
<p>I don’t belittle the hardships that a reservist makes, but there are added hardships for those on active duty…but anyway, welcome to the board…I look forward to many healthy debates in the future, but I think we’ll find we agree more often than disagree.</p>
<p>Nor is anyone devaluing the necessity of a maritime industy, a medical industyr, or any other component of what makes this country work. Put in a popular context, we are ALL winners and important to making this country work.
I come from a law enforcment background; my family was/is in law enforcement and I worked in federal law enforcement for many years. Do law enforcement officers [in this context federal law enforcement officers] serve their country? Of course, but they are being paid to do a job.</p>
<p>THE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE is that our [my] education was not paid for by the US taxpayer. MMA graduates are granted a largesse that FAR EXCEEDS that granted to graduates of the other service academies. If one compares earnings over a twenty-year career [assuming one stays in the military services] against the service provided [active versus rserve duties], there simply is no comparison. [Even if the reservists is placed in harm’s way for a year or two. KP2001 is a prime example of giving up earnings capacity to “serve his country” in exchange fo rhis education.] BUT, as I mentioned before, this is the bargain currently in effect for America. GREAT! My advice to any youngster would be, if you don’t ming going to sea, to take advantage of the situation if you can. There is no resentment. The opportunity is there; if you qualify TAKE IT! What a country!!!</p>
<p>Yet you attempt to link USMMA grads with State Maritime Grads in teh same boat as surgeons [and, presumably, law enforcement officers, payroll disbursement officers, reservists who hand statistical analysis, naval reserve officers based in Minnesota] along with those active duty sailors, marines, and soldiers who are serving in teh front lines. THE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE is the USMMA grads have had their educaitonal costs subsidized, almost, in their entirety. The state maritime grads, at least, paid for their educaiton along w/ the rest of us. </p>
<p>The MMA made a lot of sense in a WWII [and maybe even in a Korean/Vietnam] environment. It makes less such sense in today’s environment. If the taxpayers are going to pay for the merchant mariner’s education, then perhaps an active duty commitment [similar to that required of other service acadmies] should be required. If graduates [as was originally posted] desire some measure of respect similar to that granted to graduates of the other service acadmies [and is granted to MMA graduates who go active duty], then they should be prepared [required?] to serve the same commitment. Otherwise, MMA is just a cost-free ride on the taxpayer’s back for some lucky kids.</p>
<p>Finally, as is typical of many on these threads, your opening salvo seeks to attack the poster, not the content of their post. [As is VERY evident in the other thread where MMA’s existence is questioned. WHile I appreciate that the original poster is probably a disgruntled MMA reject, it would be interesting to read about why the MMA should even exist rather than attacks on how inconsistent/ignorant the poster is.] Are SOME reserve components heavily involved in this current war on terrorism [are we still calling it that?]? Sure. Are some MMA graduates involved w/ these units? Probably. The point is, over the long term, active duty service is more demanding compared to a reserve service of comparable length.</p>
<p>Just remember, we are ALL important to making this country work. [Or, at least, we all like to THINK we are important to making this country work.] The original thread asked why USMMA does not receive the same level of respect for “serving their country.” I think its because they are being PAID to serve their country in a way that far exceeds what others receive to “serve their country.” </p>
<p>But that’s just us posting on a goofy college website. I don’t think anything is going to change. Ce’ la vie good buddy.</p>