How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?

[texaspg]

<p>If Ivies admit the kids but they keep going to Chicago, NU and UIUC, they have to give up sometime right?</p>

<p>Usually the track history of specific schools at these colleges matters, i.e., kids showing up when admitted. The paper should check on how the schools did 5-10 years ago?</p>

[absweetmarie]

<p>Thanks, Bay, for your perspective. (I first typed “Bay” as “Baby”! Wouldn’t want you to get the wrong idea!) I was reacting to what seemed like a silly juxtaposition of “white Christians” and losers in sm74’s post. I think the points you are raising about demographics are interesting and worth discussing.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Tribune analysis found that Naftzger may be right not only about Princeton but all eight of the premier Ivy League schools, where kids from Illinois make up less than 3 percent of the freshman classes, based on national data.</p>

<p>The figure has barely budged over two decades. At individual Ivy League schools, Illinois students make up 1.7 to 4.4 percent of the freshman class, based on the most recent federal data. About 4 percent of college freshmen nationally are from Illinois.

</p>

<p>But, again, this is MEANINGLESS unless you know what % of the Ivy applicant pool is from Illinois. This drives me crazy from a data-analysis standpoint. </p>

<p>About 4% of college freshmen nationally are from Illinois – who cares? For most students, the Ivy League is completely irrelevant. </p>

<p>What % of high-achieving hs seniors are from Illinois?
Wjat % of high-achieving applying-to-Ivy hs seniors are from Illnois? </p>

<p>Because there are plenty of high-achieving hs seniors out this way who just don’t think about the Ivy League one way or the other, and are happy to go off to UIUC. Plus, you’ve got NU, U of Chicago and Notre Dame siphoning off a bunch. You can’t admit people who don’t apply. That doesn’t mean “underrepresentation.” </p>

<p>I really wish people would calculate indexes relative to a state’s population instead of reporting what % of the total comes from a state. That’s the only way you can compare different states. Gee, I bet Rhode Island sends even fewer kids to the Ivy League than California, but that’s not evidence of anything.</p>

[Bay]

<p>Adding also, that if the Hillel numbers are bogus, someone needs to call them on it, because people are basing their conclusions on those numbers. I think Harvard has an obligation to do it, because it is causing controversy that may be unfounded.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

But, again, this is MEANINGLESS unless you know what % of the Ivy applicant pool is from Illinois. This drives me crazy from a data-analysis standpoint.

</p>

<p>PG,
Again, I say this is irrelevant, unless there is evidence that Harvard admits students in proportion to its applicant pool demographic. It seems to me what you would need to know is how the credentials of the Illinois applicants measure up to all other students who were admitted, even if there are a relatively small number of Illinois applicants.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>It’s not irrelevant if one is claiming, as the article did, that Illinois is “underrepresented.”
I agree that the piece you add in – the credentials of the applicants – counts as well, but the first cut is the % of the applicant pool. </p>

<p>Let’s just play with some numbers here:
Let’s assume Illinois accounts for 6% of all high achieving hs seniors.
But let’s also assume Illinois accounts for 2% of all high achieving hs seniors who apply to Harvard (because they’d rather go to NU, or U of Chicago, or Notre Dame, or UIUC, or just don’t want to be far from home, or just never considered Harvard as a place they could ever be, whatever).</p>

<p>Harvard could PRIVILEGE Illinois students – give them an acceptance rate double of what they give everyone else – and yet still Illinois students in this hypothetical would only represent 4% of the incoming class at Harvard. </p>

<p>Does that mean they are “underrepresented”? Well, yes, compared to the high achieving hs senior population. But they are overrepresented in terms of who applied. Harvard’s “Illinois problem” in this theoretical scenario is getting high achieving students to come and give them applications in the first place.</p>

[Bay]

<p>^Yes, that makes sense, thanks.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>

Reform Jews have a different definition from Conservative and Orthodox. My children, who have 3 Jewish grandparents, would not be considered Jewish by the Orthodox since the non Jewish grandparent is their maternal grandmother (my mother). But they and I couldn’t care less, because any Reform temple and any Hillel would certainly “accept” them as Jewish. The Orthodox do not have a monopoly on the definition.

</p>

<p>Just as there are Christian denominations that would consider their more liberal counterparts not “real” Christians. They’d probably say Unitarians can call themselves whatever they want but they’re not going to Heaven ;)</p>

<p>A good friend of mine is Jewish. His parents both are, though I don’t think he had a lot of exposure religiously, growing up. He doesn’t care to attend services of any kind nor does he have his kids attend. He considers himself - his words - *culturally *Jewish. High holidays are observed in his home, (along with Christian holidays, he married a Christian woman…so his kids aren’t *really *Jewish…but they have a Jewish last name…but they are, since they celebrate the holidays…but but but).</p>

<p>This is sort of why I brought it up, to show how ridiculous it is to try to count Jewish people at Harvard, or anywhere. By surname, Hillel participation or really any other measure except maybe self-identification.</p>

[apprenticeprof]

<p>I’m very involved in the Jewish world, and I have iton good authority that the Hillel numbers are outdated. Harvard’s was mentioned specifically as being too high - the estimate from people who have good reason to know (or at least to have some idea) is that it is now in the ballpark of 15-20%. </p>

<p>In any event, while there are a number of reasons for Jewish overrepresentation in the Ivies, most of which have been discussed, I really, really doubt that an institutional preference for Jews is one of them.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>There are tons of great kids out there. As several keep pointing out, not all top kids are fixated on HYP. In order to slam, say, Harvard, I think you have to first be able to acknowledge that: there are tons of great kids out there. </p>

<p>I think it’s H that notes (maybe in the Crimson?) that the applicant pool (2015 or 16?) included 14000 applicants with gpa 4.0. If it’s not H, doesn’t matter-- the idea is, that’s the sort of competition starter to consider. </p>

<p>Someone can say, well then why take anyone less than 4.0? Because, in short, it’s not all about stats. And, it is about a limited number of seats. If one believes there is something diabolical at work, I think they first have to be overlooking the fact that there are so many top performers. And, how so many of those really extend themselves in reasonable ways, stretch, and still come across as normal, happy, grounded kids.</p>

<p>ps. someone can dig for the details, but I believe using religious affliliation (or assumptions) is not legal, while seeking diversity in other respects is fine. You have to get past the surface, read in a little depth, to see the stand.</p>

[JHS]

<p>

If youre a wasp kid whose busted his butt and done everything right to get straight A’s and is brilliant because you are incredibly intellectually curious you arent going to get into Harvard but not to worry there are alot of other great schools out there.

</p>

<p>I know anecdotes aren’t evidence, but my son had two friends in his cohort who went to Harvard. One was a WASP kid who didn’t quite get straight A’s, but close, and who was brilliant and incredibly intellectually curious (and who, as a Yale legacy, was rejected by Yale), and the other was a fundamentally unhooked Japanese-American who didn’t quite get straight A’s, but close, and who was brilliant and incredibly intellectually curious.</p>

<p>Brilliant and intellectually curious kids of all stripes, including WASP, white Catholic, and Asian, do get into Harvard, and in meaningful numbers.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>

argybargy: I think people have invented this idea of the lopsided SAT score to explain away the tremendous gap from the norm at these schools.

</p>

<p>If you spend any time at all in the “chance me” threads here, you will see a lot of anecdotal evidence of kids with lopsided scores. In the schools’ own breakdowns you’ll see MIT kids with high math and low(er) writing, too. I just looked at H and MIT’s stats for this freshman class and there are like 2-3% in the under 600 SAT range.</p>

<p>PS: I can’t respond to your posts without singing Pulling Mussels from a Shell to myself. </p>

<p>

no one – including Harvard – has any idea how many Mormons they have. Or Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Pentecostals, Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Albanian Orthodox

</p>

<p>My S declined to answer that question on the CA. I bet he’s not alone.</p>

[Bay]

<p>LF,
This may be of interest to you:</p>

<p>

Key to retaining and adding Jews on campus is recruitment, Baeslack said, so the university hired an admissions staffer who spends about one-third of her time on Jewish enrollment. The university also worked with Hillel to improve its website and branding.

</p>

<p>[The</a> quest for Jewish students - Cleveland Jewish News: Local News](<a href=“http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/news/local/article_b92747c4-9527-11e1-87f9-001a4bcf887a.html]The”>The quest for Jewish students)</p>

<p>Also in the article of note, is this tidbit:</p>

<p>

A 2001 study by the College Board showed that Unitarians had the highest average SAT score for religious groups at 1209 (at the time, out of a possible 1600), followed by Jews with 1161. The national average in this study was 1020.

</p>

<p>I wonder how many Unitarians are at Harvard. :)</p>

[Philovitist]

<p>When you say Unitarian, do you mean Unitarian Universalists?</p>

[Bay]

<p>I don’t know, I just quoted the article.</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Unitarian is officially Unitarian Universalist, has been for a long while.
Nice for Unitarians to get some props.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

He considers himself - his words - culturally Jewish. High holidays are observed in his home, (along with Christian holidays, he married a Christian woman…so his kids aren’t really Jewish…but they have a Jewish last name…but they are, since they celebrate the holidays…but but but).

</p>

<p>Lots of people are culturally Jewish – lox, bagels, Seinfeld, Passover at grandma’s (who really isn’t kosher anyway) and wrap-the-Christmas-gifts-in-blue-and-white. This is not an insult at all, just a statement of fact. Hillel would count them as Jewish.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

If youre a wasp kid whose busted his butt and done everything right to get straight A’s and is brilliant because you are incredibly intellectually curious you arent going to get into Harvard but not to worry there are alot of other great schools out there.

</p>

<p>Oh please. You’re not GUARANTEED to get into Harvard, but neither is anyone else, so stop acting so put-upon.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>

Hillel would count them as Jewish.

</p>

<p>I doubt he’d ever contact Hillel so how would they know?</p>

[lookingforward]

<p>Bay, thanks. The article- I can’t find the words. Dumbfounded, but if I say more, it will get some people rolling. Later, maybe.</p>