How corrupt are Ivy League admissions?

Parents Forum
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<p>The “evil motivations” is a red herring attempt to silence people who ask questions about about a secret process that is having discriminatory outcomes. ‘I dont want to discussed it’ == ‘it shouldnt be discussed’. Stormfront has hardly been hanging out on a college admissions web site in the hopes that a racial conversation would break out so they could put in their two cents. I think we should assume people are sincere in their concern. </p>

<p>There are plenty of reasons for disproportionate Jewish population at Ivies, one of which is that legacies are obviously a self reenforcing system. Its also fair to ask if the classification of Jewish students in the general population is that same method being used to classify Jewish students at Ivies (not obvious to me that it is). </p>

<p>But as regards the asian population its suspicious to me that the asian enrollment at the elite schools has converged for the past decade at roughly the same number. There are backroom quotas in place that are excluding a group of the most qualified kids in favor of those with lower scores but better skin color. That leaves the HYP defenders with two real arguments (I am going to disallow “you are just jealous”, “the article is so long”, “you cant devise a better system” as actual arguments):
a. there is nothing going on, its all a coincidence
b. it is going on and isnt it wonderful</p>

<p>from the article:

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<p>For the later argument, I’d suggest that sending the top kids to the best schools wouldnt be a bad thing.</p>

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<p>Argbargy: what is “it” that is going on that is “so wonderful?”</p>

<p>It’s important to understand the history of the United States of America, in which these schools operate, as I’m sure you do, in order to understand the importance of the admission of URMs. </p>

<p>Education and education levels is a self-fulfilling spiral staircase to true equality of opportunity. It simply is. Also, given the nature of this country, there are different races, different cultures, different histories, different social engineering projects different groups have gone through over time. This country was never a meritocracy unless you consider wealth built on the backs of slaves to be meritorious.</p>

<p>There have always been injustices and the injustices which arise from the redress of other injustices.</p>

<p>However, I believe the URM question and ORM question eventually reaches equilibrium over time. </p>

<p>For example, at one time, not too long ago, people made the exact same argument as to why young women should not be admitted to top schools. Now, it is the young men who receive a tip in much of admissions because the young women are over represented in the college population. It doesnt only go one way.</p>

<p>So, do I think it is “wonderful” that there are kids who are rejected from college? No. I dont, either, think it is wonderful that there are kids born into lesser circumstances, or who recieve lesser guidance.</p>

<p>The only way these arguments really work is in a vacuum, in an “all things being equal” type of utopian discussion. All things are NOT equal. All admission decisions are not the same, either. What the adcom is looking for from my high SES white daughter and somebody else is entirely different. But, what they recieved in terms of resources, experience and educational opportunities is entirely different as well.</p>

<p>Anyone qualified for admissions, and there are many more applicants than spaces (if this even needs to be said at this point), can make a case that THEY were the wronged party. Some who never apply can point to circumstances of birth and say they never even had a chance. Either way, anyone qualified enough to be disappointed in rejection is most likely going to have an excellent life: in other words, #firstworldproblems.</p>

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<p>So where are all the smart Asian kids being rejected from HYP going, and why wouldn’t you also consider those places as elite?</p>

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<p>Any argument that admissions outcomes are due to a lack of awareness by adcoms about who they are admitting is bogus, because these colleges have the resources and yield rates to recruit exactly whom they want.</p>

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<p>argybargy your quote there contradicts itself. The 1991 investigation closing resulted in peak years with more Asian attendance than ever? That makes no sense at all for that argument.</p>

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<p>C’mon, people. Are some of you still arguing that URMs do not get a boost? This is a fact, it is not denied by the colleges themselves, and it has been argued all the way up to the US Sup Ct, which held that the practice is lawful.</p>

<p>The question thus becomes, what is happening to the rest of the applicant pool? How are they getting in? Asians are right to question the apparent soft quota, because quotas have specifically been held to be unlawful. </p>

<p>Then you look at the White pool, and what do you see? Not much, if it were not for the fact that Hillel proclaims far and wide that 25-30% of Harvard is Jewish. So Asian students look at this and might say, why does one minority get 25-30% and we only get 20%? And non-Jewish Whites might say, why does the Jewish White number remain unchanged, while ours is obviously shrinking?</p>

<p>These are logical questions that do not connote evil intent.</p>

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<p>Yes, that exactly is what I am saying. Thank you, you put it so much better than I. I am proposing that the FAF immediately be modified to track the source of everyone’s assets 5 generations back.</p>

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<p>In the long run we are all dead. Well, not me, but you get the point. In the short run there is a 17 yo Cambodian immigrant who cant realize his dream because of his crime of not being sufficiently diverse. URM and ORM are meta-nonsense. We are talking about individuals. Its cold comfort to a 17yo that in 40 years time the scales may be tipped another way, or that 60 years ago people he had no association with did something else.</p>

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[Nirvana</a> fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy]Nirvana”>Nirvana fallacy - Wikipedia)</p>

<p>So we shouldnt improve a system were people ARE being harmed just in case someone in the future MIGHT argue they were being harmed. </p>

<p>Its completely non-cogent to argue that since there are more qualified applicants that spaces that we should star admitting unqualified applicants. How does that make any sense?</p>

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<p>What makes you think the ones being admitted are UNQualified? Don’t tell me, let me guess. You worship at the ground of the almighty SAT and believe a 2400 is automatically more qualified than a 2300.</p>

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<p>Why is the dream of the Cambodian immigrant any more or less than important than the dream of anyone who desires a top school? The vast majority of applicants are going to be disappointed. That’s how it goes.</p>

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<p>All,</p>

<p>Unfortunately the selection group that reviews the essays does not have many Asians who can interpret the essesence of the essay that an Asian writes compared to essays from jewish or hispanic or black who can relate themselves to the reviewers. This is a big negative for Asians. Thus schools need more asians on the board of essay reviewers.</p>

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<p>I believe that Unz’s point is that since the Federal investigation closed without any government intervention or oversight of the Ivy’s admissions policies that in subsequent years administrators were free to implement their quota targets as part of their holistic process. </p>

<p>It would be interesting to find this actual investigation report.</p>

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<p>Argbargy–</p>

<p>there is no “we” in this. There is only the admission committee, and even if you are on one of them, you are not on all of them, and so, there is no “we.”</p>

<p>I feel that many cambodian immigrants can find a place that would be more than happy to fund their education. They should try the LACs. In fact, swat just got a 50 million dollar donation to build their engineering program. They value many of the qualities this young woman might possess.</p>

<p>Let me put it another way: it’s not up to us. We are not the “we” of the admissions committee, AND to say that a young cambodian refugee’s entire future has been destroyed because she will not attend an Ivy is to completely misunderstand the meaning of life, just in general. Forget the meta. Look at the macro.</p>

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<p>"You worship at the ground of the almighty SAT and believe a 2400 is automatically more qualified than a 2300. "</p>

<p>Well they are certainly more qualified than a 2100 or an 1850 wouldnt you say? These are the colleges own admissions criterion, and yet they toss them out in some cases. </p>

<p>If there are more 2400 SAT, valedictorian, uw 4.0 GPA 's than there are slots, what sense does it make to start admitting people significantly lower?</p>

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<p>“I feel that many cambodian immigrants can find a place that would be more than happy to fund their education. They should try the LACs.”</p>

<p>So logically those alternate institutions would represent no hardship or diminution to the URM who are being admitted ahead of the more qualified students.</p>

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<p>argbargy, I actually do not believe it would be any kind of dimunition or hardship for an intelligent URM, ORM, or anybody else, to attend one of the excellent LACs, state schools, or any other top fifty institution of higher learning in this country. In fact, I will be entirely heretic and say that any top 100 will do just fine. The intellectually superior will find ample opportunity to excell and find paths to mentorship and grad school and employment at any of these schools.</p>

<p>However, it would be a dimunition for any of these institutions of higher learning to become LESS diverse than they are. Plain and simple, the institutions benefit from having a varied and interesting mix of qualified students. They get to choose what constitutes qualified. Not us.</p>

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<p>[Argument</a> from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Argument from authority - Wikipedia”>Argument from authority - Wikipedia)</p>

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<p>Argbargy, I know you are new around here, but I’m really not going to respond to a wikipedia cite. I don’t consider a wikipedia cite to be any more valid or informed than a cite of a post by someone on this site.</p>

<p>The point I am making is that the diversity benefits the institutions and the missions of the institutions, and not all admissions decisions, or even ANY, for that matter, should be seen as being about the applicants. The job of the applicant is to get his or her best placement. The job of the admissions committee is to serve the best interests of the institution and not of any one individual applicant.</p>

<p>This is a mistaken assumption many make when it comes to college admissions, that the process is about the students. The process, from the perspective of the school is about the school and what the school thinks is best for itself.</p>

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<p>“Argument-from-authority” is a well-known logical fallacy. Whether or not argbargy cited the definition of it from wikipedia is irrelevant. </p>

<p>There’s a great short story written in the early 20th century about logical fallacies. Maybe some of you have read it. It’s about a young bachelor that woos a pretty girl, but he worries that she is not smart enough for him (I suspect you couldn’t write such a story these days.) So he sets out to teach her logic, teaching her what all the logical fallacies are. Satisfied that she now was smart enough for him, he made advances on her. However, at every turn the girl blunted his advances by citing a 'logical fallacy" that he was making to try to gain her affections. It was a pretty funny story.</p>

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<p>The point is you are making an invalid argument. “Hey they have an invalid system but they are the ones in authority and how dare we say anything. Cant fight city hall”. The whole point of the topic is how corrupt is the system. Not if we should shut up because its none of our beeswax.</p>

<p>As Utz points out, the Jewish quota, which was undoubedly going on, only stopped because people complained about the system. Hey- it was their college then. They were the admissions officers then, not us. Obviously the Jewish quota must have been fine and dandy and not up for anyone outside of HYP to discuss. </p>

<p>The only actual counter arguments are
-its not going on, contradicted Espenshade’s study
-its going on and its a good thing. I dont seen any factual basis for this. And if it was good, would it be great at the LACs?</p>

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<p>ROTFL! Way to go, Absweetmarie! It’s too soon for me to give you green stamps again, but you certainly deserved them.</p>