<p>Let me play devil’s advocate. Notre Dame identifies itself as a Catholic university. I would not be surprised if it prefers Catholic applicants. Notre Dame students are eligible for Pell grants and other Federal student aid. Harvard, Yale, and other Ivies were founded to train Protestant ministers. If there are Catholic schools, why can’t there be Protestant schools? What about schools that prefer Christians, whether Catholic or Protestant, as long as they discriminate equally against all non-Christians (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, atheists)?</p>
<p>yeah, I think you’d find a tremendous number of these universities began as divinity schools, not just the HYPs, either. I don’t know if Notre Dame preferences catholics, but I do know the rules at notre dame would give pause to those NOT catholic. Like BYU, there are many strict rules in place at Notre Dame which might dissuade the secularly minded from applying.</p>
<p><a href=“http://magazine.nd.edu/news/10166-awkward-is-still-the-operative-word/[/url]”>http://magazine.nd.edu/news/10166-awkward-is-still-the-operative-word/</a></p>
<p>Do they have stats on the % of Jewish Americans at the Ivy League compared to the percentage of Jews in the population? Are they currently ORM or URM? How did that % vary with time over the last 30 years?</p>
<p>Jewish people are the largest ORM on campus, but I don’t think anyone breaks them out and they just fall in the white category, unless, of course, they aren’t white.</p>
<p>What is odd is that nobody questions why on earth they categorize asians as some monolithic group. This is a vast area of real estate we are calling “asian.” Of course, I suppose the same could be said of “white” or hispanic, for that matter.</p>
<p>And, then, why exactly do we have these statistics? I mean, why are we asking about people’s race on the apps? Is there some actual reason for this?</p>
<p>I mean: they do ask about religion, but do they put that in the CDS? It’s kind of strange.</p>
<p>I for one take offense to being an Asian. I want to be called Indian American. After all America was discovered when people went looking for India. Otherwise nunya guys would be here. :p</p>
<p>If the constitution says “All men are created equal…” wouldn’t considering race in admissions be unconstitutional?</p>
<p>The Constitution doesn’t say that; it’s in the Declaration of Independence.</p>
<p>the 14th amendment bans discrimination.</p>
<p>Exactly Tex, I can’t figure it out, this asian thing. I have some very close friends who are Japanese Americans, and I have a group of Sikhs I know pretty well. But, when these groups, say, Chinese or Cambodian, or Laoatians, or Vietnamese, or Indians come to the US, do they all become “asian?” I can’t decide.</p>
<p>I guess it’s like Germans, and Italians and Spanish and Dutch and British all being “White,” except, wait, not all of those who are citizens in Spain or Holland or Germany are white anymore? I don’t even know if all the citizens in Vietnam are asian? Are they asian?</p>
<p>It’s too complicated to figure out.</p>
<p>So, if your family came here from South Africa, but you are white? Are you African American? I don’t know.</p>
<p>You tell me. Aren’t there caucaisions in India? Aren’t Sikhs mainly caucaison? Wait, so are they asian for the purpose of admissions?</p>
<p>I get baffled by this.</p>
<p>Also, do they do this in Canada and Europe? Do they ask for your race on your college app?</p>
<p>“So, if your family came here from South Africa, but you are white? Are you African American? I don’t know.”</p>
<p>There is always one kid asking this on CC every year. I have not seen it this year!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Karabel’s “THe Chosen” contains some pretty direct reference in chapter 4 about the “Jewish problem” and the “Hebrew Invasion” of undesirables (in quotes because they came from university officials at Yale and Princeton.) It’s in google books if this link doesn’t work.</p>
<p>Karabel would likely agree there is some validity to current Asian complaints although he hasn’t got the same types of inflammatory quotes to back that up. </p>
<p>OTOH, he does back race based affirmative action for URMs, which I guess would cause some to label him a racist, the same way one might refer to Byron de la Beckwith.</p>
<p>[The</a> Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission And Exclusion at Harvard, Yale … - Jerome Karabel - Google Books](<a href=“The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale ... - Jerome Karabel - Google Books”>The Chosen: The Hidden History of Admission and Exclusion at Harvard, Yale ... - Jerome Karabel - Google Books)</p>
<p>@periwinkle, Whatever the political document, wouldn’t it be a violation of the principles the country is founded upon?</p>
<p>Joshua, you should read the thread. Also, the principles this country was founded upon included slavery and Indian Reservations. Well, not REALLY Indians, but native americans.</p>
<p>There may be a lesson in it for the Asian Americans: where the Jews rose from being discriminated against to being the ORM at the Ivy League. You should learn/look into how they did it while still being the minority of the population.</p>
<p>except, Josh, it is really difficult to say that a group that is being admitted in the 20-25% range, and higher at some places, which is only 5% of the population is ACTUALLY being discriminated AGAINST.</p>
<p>There are too many factors at play to even really tease it out.</p>
<p>Well, one way they did it was to go make their own successes, even if they weren’t at HYP.</p>
<p>Beliavsky, you asked upthread:<br>
- Why people would be troubled by discrimination against people based on their race and not troubled by discrimination based on their developed abilities – academic, musical, or athletic – ought to be obvious.*</p>
<p>Yes, but how do you differentiate between the two if developed abilities are clustered?
bclintonk identifies the issue perfectly when he says:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Here’s the crux of the issue. If the adcom says “I prefer one high stats Chinese-American math/physics geek from CA plujs one AA poet from South Carolina over two high stats Chinese-American math/physics geeks from CA,” they may be doing so irrespective of race, but the onlookers on CC ascribe it to race (and whine that the URM had lower scores and isn’t it awful, blah blah blah). But why ascribe to race what you can ascribe to wanting diversity - and not just in the racial sense, but overall diversity?</p>
<p>The ascent of the Jewish Americans might have been aided by their assimilation into the white race, which might work against the Asian Americans even if they try to imitate the Jewish success.</p>
<p>Well, the HYP English department is not going to see much of the physics/math dude from anywhere but they do want to see the poet dude from anywhere.</p>
<p>Vis a vis this discussion, and particularly the post by JHS #1158, I do strongly suggest looking at the current Yale Physics faculty: [Faculty</a> | Department of Physics](<a href=“http://physics.yale.edu/faculty]Faculty”>http://physics.yale.edu/faculty)</p>
<p>“except, Josh, it is really difficult to say that a group that is being admitted in the 20-25% range, and higher at some places, which is only 5% of the population is ACTUALLY being discriminated AGAINST.”</p>
<p>Wasn’t it also true that during the worst time of Jewish quota, in the early 1930s, Harvard still had 15% Jewish students when Jewish was only about 3.5% of the US population? I don’t think anyone on this thread would deny that the Jews were discriminated against.</p>