<p>My daughter has always seemed a winner to me...but I'm her mom. She's finishing her junior year in the top 5 of her class (independent school of gifted kids/70 per class/12 of 70 graduating seniors were Nat Merit Finalists), has a selection index of 217 on PSAT, took her ACT yesterday (wouldn't do any prep for it...got a composite 35 on her practice ACT), got a 5 on AP French 4 last year and 3 on AP European history, unweighted GPA of 3.96, is taking AP English, US History and Stats this year and AP Chem, Physics, Shakespeare, French 5, and BC calculus next year. Major extracurricular activity is music theater (had the lead in the musical this spring), co-editor of the newspaper, and golf team. Anyway, from what I read on these forums, she's no different from all the other kids applying to the Ivies and top tier LAC's. All her friends are applying to these and she wishes to as well. The prob is that her dad and I have NO experience in this. We both went to a small LAC in the midwest because that's where our parents made us go to school, so have no experience in the applications process. (Both of us did fine, are MD's on the faculty of a major state university med school). Anyway, what is the best way to assist her in this process so she doesn't fall between the cracks due to our ignorance? Her college counselor has been essentially non-vis this year.</p>
<p>Welcome! You've come to the right place for college info all the time! I don't know much about theater/music programs, but just wanted to offer a welcome. </p>
<p>I'm sure other parents much more knowledgeable will chime in.</p>
<p>Have you toured any schools? That is really helpful because the admin people give lots of advice- what they are looking for in applicants, etc. Even if you can't visit the top schools, going to what schools you can really helps. Also get some of the books A is for Admission, Harvard Schmarvard...they advice is different, but shows the process...</p>
<p>Next, D needs to decide what she wants to study...just applying to an IVY or top tier because its an IVY or top tier is not the best plan. And to apply because everyone else is also isn't the best either.</p>
<p>If she is interested in theater, there might be different schools she should look at. Next she needs to think about style of school- urban, suburan, sports oriented, greek, size, location, weather, grad school options, preppy, laid back. Some kids want really urban schools, some want big, some want tiny schools in the burbs...</p>
<p>Next cost. Getting money can be really easy or really hard. Being MDs I am guessing you might not need any aid, or might not get any.</p>
<p>Next, she needs to decide whether she wants to apply ED or EA to anyplace and learn what those terms mean. Most major cities have college fairs. Find them. It is a bit of a circus, but some information can be gleened from them.</p>
<p>Get connected with the schools she is interested, most have great on line resources.</p>
<p>I think one of the most important things is to think about what she wants to study. I am not saying this of your D, but many kids apply to apply, not really knowing if the school is a good fit. Ooooh, Yale, but Yale isn't everyones fit. Have you read the posts from kids accepted to schools they don't really want to go to buts thats the only option? Why do that?</p>
<p>One other VERY important thing...she may be very qualified to all the schools she applies to, but the acceptance process is bizarre..kids with great numbers get rejected all the time. And if they have twenty girls who were all leads, or fifty guys who were all editors of the paper, you get my drift. So be sure an include some "safety" schools. Schools with less competitive admission numbers. Also, because her school is a gifted school, she will be impressive but perhaps it can also be a detriment if say 15 kids all apply to Harvard. The colleges won't take so many kids from one school. </p>
<p>Good Luck!! I hope I didn't scare you, but I just focused on the harsh realities of the process. It can be daunting and to know a bit ahead of time some of the uncontrollables, the results can turn out better.</p>
<p>ps- my D is a sophmore and we started checking out schools already. SHe learned alot about what she wants to study and what kind of school she likes. She likes urban schools, she wants to do law ans social justice, and she wants to be able to intern in a city.</p>
<p>From the standpoint of academic preparation, she is doing great, I would not worry.
She already has
AP French- 5 ( 10th)
AP-Euro 3 (1oth) will not count for credit in Tier 1 colleges, but still excellent for a sophomore.
She will have:
AP-English
AP-USH
AP-Stats by the end of this year
and will be taking a slew of other AP courses by the time she applies.
For her ECs, she is doing musical theater, and she should stick with it.
If she scores 35 on the ACT, that's what she should be sending to colleges. But you should also consult the websites of colleges she is interested in to check what tests they require of their applicants (ACT only or ACT plus SAT-II? or no tests at all as is the case for some colleges such as Mt Holyoke?)</p>
<p>Has she and you toured colleges? Spring break junior year is a great time for doing so. Has she defined the kind of schools she would like to attend: urban/rural/suburban? coed/single sex? LAC/large university/mid-sized research university? frat/sorority or not? Midwest, NE, South, West Coast? </p>
<p>Does she want to apply Early Decision? Early Action? Single Choice Early Action? REgular Decision? This will depend partly on your financial situation. Except in a very few cases, students needing financial aid should stay away from Early Decision.</p>
<p>This reminds me that some time ago, Mr. B. collected school guidance websites. Search for that thread under his screen-name. Many of those websites have terrific information.</p>
<p>Many thanks for your replies thus far. So far, she (and variously my husband and I) have visited Northwestern, U of Chicago (didn't like), Stanford, Columbia, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Amherst and Wellesley. She spoke with the admissions info representative at each school about her desire to double major (concentration) in chemistry and theater (or music at Princeton which does not offer a theater major). Approx 10 members of the class each year apply to the Ivies. In her class, two students are guaranteed in at Princeton (the child and nephew of the CEO of one of the big 4 auto companies whose kids ALL go to Princeton), so her chances there are next to none. She wishes to go to the Ivies, not because it's fashionable, but because of all the places she's visited, she thinks they best offer her vision of education and she felt like she "fit in"...the gut reaction I guess. And no, she won't need financial aid (not because we're both MD's since we came from the military to asst prof at U of Mich so our salaries aren't like private docs, but because we've saved like crazy since she was born). She'll be at Interlochen Fine Arts Camp again this summer (3rd year) in the Advanced Vocal Institute and then will have to knuckle down and do these applications. I don't think she's decided about ED or EA yet. Any other thoughts? Are test prep courses necessary? Do we need to hire a college counselor since the one at her school seems uninvolved?</p>
<p>Echosensei: welcome to these boards, a place where you will spend a good part of the next year, unless like most of us you can resist becoming a CC addict. You've been given plenty of good advice already. </p>
<p>Your daughter is a winner, but now she's about to move into the national competition with other winners from all around the country, as well as from overseas. There are far more of them than any top school can accommodate, probably more than all the Ivys combined, and those schools have some other considerations as well.</p>
<p>So consider that certain schools (the Ivies, Stanford, some top liberal arts colleges) are "reaches" (challenges) for most students, even the top ones. If they're interesting to her, and you can find the resources to pay all or most of the cost, then pick one to three and apply. Next look at some schools just a shade down from the top, where merit scholarships are available to attract students like your daughter. They may or may not have the name recognition, but they will provide a darn good education, and possibly at appreciably lower cost, and may have high standing in certain fields that match the tops. There are a number of them, in different geographical areas.</p>
<p>Don't overlook honors programs at your state U; sounds like your daughter could qualify for those, perhaps with scholarships, at even lower cost (if that's a factor). But you and she will have to decide if a large school is right for her.</p>
<p>Whatever you do, don't let your daughter's choices be influenced by any desire to do what her friends are going to do (or rather, what her friends are saying that they're going to do) First and foremost - your daughter is not her friends - they are different people with different aims and different likes and dislikes. One school will be better for one, another for another. Second, at this stage her friends really don't know any more about where they will be applying than you do. Thirdly, with the passage of a short amount of time, from now to next winter, both your D and her friends will be changing, perhaps dramatically. So keep out of this rat race as much as possible - try to run your own race.</p>
<p>Finally, as far as the GC is concerned, he/she would have been concentrating on this year's seniors so far, but ought to be making appointments now for parents of juniors, to start discussing schools to consider and possibly visit over the summer. In a school of that size, this ought to be happening very soon; if not, you should ask why.</p>
<p>And as your thinking proceeds, post more on these boards, then sit back and wait for the advice to flow in.</p>
<p>Good luck with the process (we went through it last year).</p>
<p>I suggest that you take your daughter to a wider range of schools including liberal arts colleges in the midwest, and also looking at some public universities. Make sure that you show your D some colleges where she would be in the middle and upper 25% of the applicant pool.</p>
<p>Right now, you're showing her only the very top colleges. She says she feels she fits in, but, after all, that's all she has seen. For all you know, she may thoroughly enjoy some other types of colleges.</p>
<p>It's also important not to inadvertently set students up for failure in thinking that only the most competitive colleges would be satisfying for them. Most of the students who apply to the kinds of colleges that you mentioned have the stats to get in. There simply aren't spaces for everyone who qualifies.</p>
<p>If you take a look at the boards here for the colleges you mentioned, and if you look at the stats and ECs on those who were accepted and rejected, you probably will be very surprised to see how unpredictable admissions can be and how so many students, including rejected students, are similar to your D. Keep in mind, too, that admissions next year is expected to be even more competitive than it was this year.</p>
<p>My thoughts are that unless you and your husband lack the time to help your D much with the application process, you can get more help here on CC boards than from most college counselors.</p>
<p>Be careful with ED. Every year we see students posting here who applied ED and after acceptance realized that they weren't that fond of their ED college. Since ED is virtually impossible to back out of, I suggest it only if your D is absolutely sure she would want to go to that college -- and if she's the type of person who once she makes up her mind sticks with her decisions.</p>
<p>Echosensei: our posts crossed. So now that I know where you have visted, let me add a couple of thoughts.</p>
<p>You have visted all highly selective schools. She might well get into some, but you should now look at schools in the group closest to these (commonly referred to as "matches"). The admissions reps you spoke with may seem enthusiatic now, but that's part of their job - to get you to apply to their schools so that they can have the best and largest applicant pool possible.</p>
<p>Chemistry/theatre double major - consider the University of Rochester -fine science, Eastman School of Music, probable merit scholarship (but you/she have to like Rochester - nice campus, cold winters, good people, some toip students, not necessarily the most interesting city -if any of that matters). Washington U. of St. Louis is another fine school that may have theater. Our S is at Brandeis - excellent for science, not that well known for theater arts. There are some liberal arts colleges in the midwest whose names pop up often in posts here. </p>
<p>Most colleges are said to have good to excellent chemistry departments, so perhaps you should look more closely at theater programs. There is a huge thread somewhere on these boards about musical theater programs.</p>
<p>There probably is no need to hire a college counselor; your daughter has all the qualifications for many top schools.</p>
<p>At Princeton, she could not double major anyway, not even if her interests were close, such as math and physics. </p>
<p>If she is not put off by the jock scene at Williams, it could be an even better fit for her than Amherst because of its great music and theater offerings. If she liked Wellesley, she should strongly consider Smith as well. Oberlin has a very strong music department and has a reputation for being very nurturing, but might be hard to get into because it draws so many talented musicians. Look also into schools that offer merit aid. The Ivies do not.
Another thing: LACs like applicants to show interest. So it will be important to visit, to research the school, to make sure that the school know it's your D's top choice, etc....</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>There is a huge thread somewhere on these boards about musical theater programs.>></p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>In fact, there is a special board for MT programs!</p>
<p>Echo,</p>
<p>I am also the proud parent of a talented daughter and I was in your position a month ago. Now I almost feel like I could be a college advisor. I've devoured the messages here and read the following books which I recommend to you as well:
A is for Admission-Hernandez
Harvard-Schmarvard-Mathews
The Hidden Ivies-Greene
Those and the college guidebooks from Princeton Review and Kaplan will give you a great background to help your daughter.</p>
<p>Chem and theatre - research Emory, especially since they are starting a new research program for motivated freshmen through the Chemistry department in fall 2005. They do organics and reactions in the fall, plus a seminar on how to ask research questions, how to plan research, how to measure/structure the results, etc., then work hands-on with grad students, post-docs, and faculty on externally funded research projects in the spring, preparing them for paid summer internships as early as after freshmen year on social, physical, or life sciences research projects.</p>
<p>As for theatre, department is reasonable size and highly enthusiastic, the student theatre groups are rally energized and S says the two productions he saw were very good, vocal music instruction/opportunities are wonderful. </p>
<p>Check it out.</p>
<p>Echosensei - I have a D very much like yours, on paper. She's a senior now, and we have our RD decisions in hand. She was accepted at Princeton, Stanford and UCs, waitlisted at Columbia and Harvard. For us it turned out happily, but not because I did my job well. </p>
<p>I made the wrong list for my D. She knew she liked the 5000-7000 range of schools, she knew she liked urban or at most suburban near a large city. But I was completely ignorant of how competitive it is now. We went to Williams, Harvard, Brown, Yale, Wesleyan, BU, NYU, Columbia, Princeton, Tufts, Northwestern. We confirmed her size and location preferences. And no surprise, my D too, really liked Ivies best, Princeton and Columbia. But when she said if she didn't get into one of her top choices she would just as soon stay in California, I left it at that. But she said that because of the weather! And I took her only to Northwestern, Tufts, BU and NYU. Never went to Rice, or Vanderbilt, or Emory, or University of Miami. What a dope. You see from the first paragraph where she actually applied.</p>
<p>And then, to add stupidity to stupidity, we had her apply EA to Harvard. She didn't even really like Harvard (it wasnt a fit, shes smarter than I am) but at least it wasn't binding, she didnt have a clear first choice, and so many members of our family had gone to Harvard that our name is carved in the chapel in Harvard yard. What incredible arrogance on my part. Looking back, my D had SATs of 1470 - that put her outside their sweet spot. What was I thinking? This was Harvard for goodness sake! </p>
<p>My D wound up deferred EA from Harvard, and her first RD decisions were both waitlists. Finally we got good news, but it was really close and agonizing. And what I know now is that I could have made the process much better. I could have had her apply to places where she was a match, not all reaches. For those Ivies, for all but the very select few, are reaches. Because here's the kicker. I'm a legacy at Princeton, my father was a professor at Stanford for many years and her high school has a very strong relationship with the school. Even though my D had every right to apply to the Ivies, she had no lock on acceptance there. I know she is qualified for Princeton and Stanford, knowing other kids accepted from her school, but I also now know that doesnt mean she was guaranteed to get in. </p>
<p>Had I found cc last year instead of this year I would have done it all very differently. All this info is to give you a start in building a better list than we did. One with a broader set of matches. It's not just about making sure you have a safety, it's about making sure you have good matches so that she will have a choice when the moment comes.</p>
<p>Echosensei - Each child is different of course. One criteria we set for our gifted (and adventurous) daughter was to find a college that offered an education beyond the classroom that appealed to her. We knew she wasn't interested in a rural LAC, but adding a formal requirement got her thinking about exactly what kind of college environment she wanted. Atlanta, New Orleans and Los Angeles made the final cut, and each of these had a college with strong offerings in her desired area of study. Sure it annoyed us that she rejected Boston (and Durham and Rochester and Providence). But it was a lot easier discussing the relative merits of programs in places she liked that than it was trying to guide her toward "the nation's premier program" that happened to be in a location she detested!</p>
<p>Best of luck with your college search.</p>
<p>PS, There's a lot of useful info in the Classic Discusssion section of CC also.</p>
<p>Thank you all very much for your wise words and much appreciated advice! She's already decided to apply to U of Mich and Oberlin (prob the liberal arts side, not the conservatory) as well as prob Carnegie Mellon (another excellent science and MT college). I'll scour the boards you've suggested and keep listening to your wonderful advice!</p>
<p>All College, All the Time</p>
<p>Welcome echosensei!</p>
<p>There are at least two or three Musical Theater parents on this board....with MUCH experience around admissions into top schools. I'm sure they'll reply soon.</p>
<p>Sounds like your D has earned herself a right to play the SCL: "Selective College Lottery". Not every kid earns this distinction. Most don't. But, your D has had her ticket punched. Remember: Proceeds Benefit USNWR. </p>
<p>I assume she's done with the ACT/SAT? Have you begun to visit? Now is a good time to visit anypalce that's close enough...before colleges let out for summer break. Visiting in the sumemr is a bummer, as you get no sense of what the school feels like during the school year. And, waiting until fall makes for a very hectic start of senior year. </p>
<p>Visit now.</p>
<p>I'd say your D is a winner too!</p>
<p>Tips: </p>
<ol>
<li><p>Look for Musical theatre stuff on the M/T forum. 'soozievt' is a parent name you might want to research and contact. Her research was beyond thorough, LOL. Her D now has had a wonderful round of acceptances.</p></li>
<li><p>If you'd like the name of a great educational consultant, send me a PM. The full service costs $2600. </p></li>
<li><p>Post all questions, even silly ones, on this forum. You can do it without giving out too much personal info. Little by little, you will get all the info you need. CC parents will edit applicant's essays. They will help guide the recommendation process. They are big with suggestions on EC presentation. The amazing list of 2009 acceptances are true testimony to the power of CC advice.</p></li>
<li><p>Help your D fall in love with a safety, aka "Love Thy Safety!" on CC. :) UMich, for example, takes apps as early as Sept (?) and has rolling admissions.</p></li>
<li><p>Don't dismiss the Honors programs at State Us or 2nd Tier schools. They might like to court your D. It's nice to be courted during the process!</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Welcome, Echosensei--I came to CC two years ago, when my daughter was a high school junior, and am still hanging around. There's great help and information to be found here, with enough raging controversy to keep things interesting ;). </p>
<p>Your daughter sounds like a lot like mine, and you're wise to recognize both the good news--that she's a winner--and the not-so-good--that there is fierce competition from other winners for admission to the Ivies and top LACs. It sounds as if both you and your daughter have already made a great start, with an excellent range of schools. My main advice at this point would be to keep visiting colleges--including possible "safety schools," for two reasons: (1) it takes a huge amount of the pressure off if your daughter can find safeties she actually loves; and (2) there's strong anecdotal evidence to the effect that certain schools may scorn highly qualified applicants who have never visited or otherwise expressed genuine interest, because they resent being used as obvious safeties.</p>
<p>Two other invaluable books: The Gatekeepers: Inside the Admissions Process of a Premier College, by Jacques Steinberg (an eye-opening look inside the admissions office at Wesleyan, by a NY Times education reporter); and On Writing the College Application Essay, by Harry Bauld (there are other books with similar names, but this one--by a former admissions officer at Brown and Columbia--is brilliant: equally smart and funny about the admissions process and about the art of writing).</p>
<p>Good luck, and try to enjoy at least some of the process: The road trips with my daughter to visit schools are some of the best memories I have of her time in high school.</p>
<p>Ah, yes. VERY sound advice abotu the safety school. As some of the most experienced parents on here will tell you, start with the safety and build from there. My son never knew his safety was his safety. He never really "got" the whole reach/match/safety thing. He just created a list based on what he liked and I encouraged him to make sure that his list included schools across various ranges of selectivity. He knew what his reaches were becasue they were Ivies and were well known. I would say "maybe you should look at Stanford" and he would say "is that a good school?". I think it's better when kids go into the process without too much info and build the list "fresh" - based on what THEY like. Preconceived notions and the pressure of family tradition/peer pressure/name "brand" shopping aren't productive. </p>
<p>Look at some of the kids on the student CC forums - They've been dreaming about a school for 10 years and will just die if they don't get in. Scary.</p>
<p>Welcome Echosense - you are on the right track. She needs matches and safeties. Since she is applying to UMich, do that as early as possible so she can hear back. If she truly likes Michigan, then she has her safety and you all won't have to fret so much. How did she feel about large vs small? UMich has a prestigious Musical Theater program, I'm not sure it is even possible to do any kind of double major there with a science. She should definitely look at Rice, Rochester, maybe Johns Hopkins. I have real doubts that she will be able to double major in at a school with a conservatory (Oberlin, Rice, etc), perhaps that should be the thrust of her search, and your discussions with her about what she truly wants to pursue.
Look at Davidson College in NC, it would be comparable to Amherst/Williams, not a safety, although they would be very interested in a bright young lady from Mich. They have a good music department, and an arrangement with the Royal Shakespeare Company. RSC will be in residence for a few weeks each spring for the next 4 years.</p>
<p>Search the forum for music and double major, and read some of the discussions - I'm not trying to be discouraging so early, it is just that she may find she wants a school where she can be in liberal arts, or arts and sciences and still have an opportunity to perform, not in a place where she may have to compete with music grad students or conservatory students.</p>
<p>Another thought about safeties, while UMich may serve well as safety for her because she will know early, she should be certain that she will be happy with such a large school, particularly if her other choices are much smaller.</p>
<p>cangel-I found in all of this that what didn't change is my D's feeling that small and rural was not her. So the time now, junior year, it is critical to get the sense of the type of institution the kid will feel is a fit. Then set a list of schools that will give him/her the choice set that correctly reflects who they are in terms of selectivity. And SET EXPECTATIONS REALISTICALLY! For my S, the too cool to try guy, I am starting now to set expectations that many schools other than Stanford are a great outcome.</p>
<p>We will see how I do:)</p>