I could use some advice....thanks.

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi I heard so much about this site from my son, friends and other parents, its fantastic! I need some solid advice so please feel free to respond if you think you have a good insight into my situation.
My husband and I did not go to college, well he went for one year then dropped out to work, I did not go at all. We are not wealthy but average, do not have a limitless budget to afford fancy tutors, and college advisors as some do. My son had a horrible start in his 9th grade year, mostly C's, one D and one F. He took both courses he did badly in over the summer and earned A's. He then started to take school more seriously and has been on a very steady upward trend ever since. Last year he had all B's and 1 A and this year is in all IB's and so far doing really great. He took the SAT for the first time in May and got a 1310 combined reading/math. He is a great kid, has done quite a bit of comm. service, has clubs/sports etc....wrote an essay that anyone who has read it said it gave them chills and is one of the best essays they have read in a long time. Not being highly educated but more self taught I have done my best to steer him as best we can. He has his hopes on some schools which I know SAT wise he fits right in but his GPA will be low due to his 9th grade grades. This has me worried sick about how this is going to play out in college admissions. He is taking the SAT again today and felt really good going in.</p>

<p>Question is, how do you think his situation will fare in the college admissions world? his first choice is BU and Northeastern. He is also applying to Syracuse, U of Miami, Villanova, St. Josephs, Fairfield and Quinnipiac. By far though BU, Northeastern and Villanova are his top three picks. Do schools consider the education background of the parents when making these decisions? He has gotten in a few packets from some very high end schools like Dartmouth, neither of us knows why so he would never dream to apply to schools like that, they are probably just sending it because he is on some mailing list. He has come so far and against many odds, we so believe in him and he is such an intelligent kid I would say to see him penalized for just being immature and not having a work ethic in 9th grade. Do many colleges not consider as highly the 9th grade?</p>

<p>I know I am all over the place, I am new to this......but any insight you have would be fantastic or any thoughts. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Welcome to CC......try not to over worry. Knowledge is power and you can increase both here.</p>

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<p>Many, many colleges will forgive poor freshman year grades. Stanford doesn't even look at them! Obviously his ranking and overall GPA will suffer, but I think most colleges will see past that. Perhaps his GC could help things by putting something in his/her letter about what his rank would be if he hadn't bombed that first year.</p>

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<p>IMO, you are not all over the place- just trying to make sense of your child's situation and how to help him plan. I cannot tell from your post whether is a senior or junior. His first SAT score is excellent-perhaps not as high as some students on CC looking at top national universities and Ivies, but I still believe it is good.</p>

<p>Our S/D are seniors and here is what I have learned from our search thus far:
1. Admissions officers look for an upward trend in grades over four years and put heavy emphasis on course rigor. While AP classes are expected, I have always been told by Adcoms that an IB student ( with good grades) has an edge over many other students because of the depth and challenge IB provides. I heard an admissions officer from Willliam and Mary ( which is an extremely competitive school) tell a student in a situation similar to your son's, to write a letter explaining freshman grades and/or emphasize improvement in interviews.<br>
2. I have seen (in many applications) questions about whether student would be first in family to attend college. It is my understanding that some highly selective schools see that prospective student in a positive light. In other words, I do not believe you/husband's lack of college degree would be a negative.
3. Colleges want to see the whole person- not just the GPA. I think that is why the essay is so important. Go to the Tufts admission website and have child read essays their admissions office considers outstanding. University of Virginia has excellent section on what they look for in a great essay.<br>
4. Many other people on CC are probably better at rating chances but here would be my take on his list: ( not sure what son's current GPA is)</p>

<p>University of Miami- high match
Northeastern- mid-high match
BU- mid match- perhaps low match
Not sure about Villanova, Syracure.</p>

<p>Go to each schools' website and find the Common Data Set- check section on enrollment and persistence- this should give you a picture of where son's profile fits with the most recently admitted class.</p>

<p>Visit these schools if you can and make sure admissions officers know of his interest- from him, not you.</p>

<p>Good luck to your son- there are great people on this site who are of tremendous help.</p>

<p>The only other "sage advice" I would offer came from an asst. dean of admissions at NYU several weeks ago. She felt the most important school choices were a student's safeties. She said too much time is spent on a kid's "reach schools" and their safety schools are, in many cases, an afterthougt. Since you never know what a school would be looking at in a particular year therefore, safety schools should be places any child would be happy and comfortable to attend.</p>

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<p>Welcome ctmmom. </p>

<p>Yes, being a first-generation college student is something schools definitely consider. Some schools only look at GPA starting sophomore year (they recalculate the student's GPA); others will informally "discount" a poor freshman year. Pretty much all schools will look favorably on an upward trend.</p>

<p>Those are all points that should help you relax a bit.</p>

<p>I don't have specific information on the particular schools he's targeting. But I do think his list looks to have a range of reach/match/safety... which is the most important thing. Second most important is for him to feel that he could be happy at his non-reach schools, in case they don't pan out.</p>

<p>Does his school have databases or scattergrams showing how students with his GPA/SAT have fared at the schools he's targeting? That could also help you see what might happen with him. Of course, those data points don't account for great essays (which can be a tipping factor) or great recommendations. So he should be thinking about teachers who will be right for his recs.</p>

<p>Is he a junior now? Or a senior? Can you tell us his GPA with and without freshman year? Does his school do weighted GPA as well as unweighted?</p>

<p>As hazmat said, you have come to a great place. If his list needs tweaking, there will be folks here who will know that and will give great advice.</p>

<p>He is on the right track! He <em>will</em> be a college student soon, and most likely he will love wherever he ends up. Even if he didn't always think it was his top choice.</p>

<p>Edit: lots of cross-posting here, but all of us "great minds" are thinking alike ;)</p>

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<p>"Do most colleges consider as highly the 9th grade?"</p>

<p>To ask that question is practically to answer it -- of course they don't. Who would? My understanding is that some discount it and some discard it altogether. Perhaps there are some schools that do take it into account on an equal footing with 11th grade, but I've never heard/seen any school say it does that. It may back-door in through class rank (if the high school takes it into account for that purpose), or if a high-school-reported GPA is taken on faith without recalculation/reweighting by the college.</p>

<p>The story "I had a tough time and screwed up, but I learned my lesson" is always an attractive one, especially when you can show a decent track record to prove that the lesson has stuck.</p>

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<p>Thanks I am overwhelmed with all this great advice, I am already starting to relax. He is a senior. With his 9th grade its a 3.0, without probably more like a 3.5, though I am guessing, quite frankly. Do you think a separate letter from him talking about his grades, 9th grade and upward trend are warranted from him? Some say don't draw attention to the bad grades, others feel that its not a bad idea, any thoughts on this? Thanks again.</p>

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<p>I'm echoing everyone here. Welcome. Being a first-generation college aspirant will be taken into account; ninth grade does not count as much as the other grades and in some cases not at all; an upward trend counts.</p>

<p>The letter would be most effective coming from the GC, although your son could write a great essay about screwing up in 9th grade and spending his summer atoning for it (some schools ask for two essays; the second one is usually described as optional but it is best to write two when that's the case).</p>

<p>In looking at colleges, do look at the financial side of things. Some schools give very little in financial aid. Those which give merit aid may ask for very high GPAs and SATs, and expect the high GPA to be maintained throughout college. I'm not an expert on financial aid for college, but others can help you out with FAFSA and related issues.</p>

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<p>The UCs do their own GPA calculation of HS grades and use only grades 10 and 11, don't include things like PE, and have a cap on how many 5 point scale AP classes will be included. I'm sure there are many other colleges who do their own calcs like this although I don't know about the ones on your list. If any of the colleges on your list follow something similar and with the upward trend in your S's grades, he'll likely do much better than expected in admissions.</p>

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<p>More encouragement: Every kid has an "arc", a journey traveled during 4 years of schooling. This is as true of h.s. as it will be in college. They grow and change, yours obviously for the better!</p>

<p>My first thought, when I read your Post #1, was, "I want to meet the person whose story starts with D/F land in 9th grade, then summer school, and "is now taking all IB's and so far doing really great." That's a lot nicer person to imagine than the ones who are straight A in 9th grade, then plummet in Jr. or Sr. year and you think, "what happened there? drugs? burnout? and the only good excuse might be something the kid should write about like a very distracting health problem from himself or a family member. I'm sure you see the difference; even if the end result GPA were identical, your guy went only "up." </p>

<p>As a sidenote, the "writer's voice" in your posts comes through as very kind and thoughtful. You perhaps raised a boy with good qualities of character and personality, just a hunch. This is likely to come through when he writes or might be mentioned in Letters of Recommendation; teachers do notice. </p>

<p>So take heart, getting into college is not only about number measurements.</p>

<p>As others have said, you have a list with a range of number measurements so that's great. If in his essay he sounds as thoughtful and kind as you do today, it will also play a positive role. They read the entire application, not just the transcripts. </p>

<p>Welcome!</p>

<p>EDIT: If a college or uni says they use "holistic admissions" that's a good thing. It means they don't just make a cut-off from numbers before reading the essay, but rather will look at the entire application to try to picture the "whole person." If you see that phrase, it's good for you; but if you DON't see it, it doesn't mean to eliminate the school from your list, by any means! It's just a small thing but it helps.</p>

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<p>Thanks so much to all of you taking the time to answer and help me feel so much better! I must admit I was really doubting myself lately feeling bad about our lack of education and therefore our lack of insight into this whole process. I have tried to really make up for it by reading a ton of books on this but his situation is rather unique and very little addresses a kid like him so my friend suggested this website and boy am I glad she did! I feel better and realize that it doesn't mean because I didn't have the chances that he did that he will not succeed. Your advice means and encouragement means more than you know. Thanks so much.</p>

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<p>another anecdote to relieve your stress.</p>

<p>In my DDs class of 135 (rural public hs) there were 10 kids who had GPAs of 4.0m as freshmen. My girls **were not **two of them. Now these kids are Juniors and there are only three remaining 4.0 students. One of my girls has been consistent throughout all As except in her math classes where she has earned Bs each for her completed semesters, the other, like your son, has shown an upward trend throughout HS going from a 3.3 freshman year to a 3.6 sophomore year. As it stands right now they are ranked at #5 and #11. </p>

<p>My point is that your son, with a less than stellar 9th grade year, is far better off than a kid who did and did not produce much after that. It's kind of a tortise and hare thing and we know how that one ended up :-)</p>

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<p>I would be skeptical about spending an essay talking about 9th grade. Time spent talking about that is time NOT spent talking about passions, interests, etc. I'd rather focus on something that is more current, something personal, detailed, honest and revealing.</p>

<p>As marite said, his GC can address freshman year. And, after all, a weak fershman year is not uncommon, colleges will have seen that many many times, and, as others have said, won't imo treat it as significant in comparison to more recent and better work.</p>

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<p>^^agreeing heartily with ADad</p>

<p>Definitely don't devote a whole essay to poor 9th grade grades. The improved transcript almost speaks for itself, answering their big question, "is he ready now to work at college?"</p>

<p>There sometimes is a place on the application that asks, "Is there anything else you want to tell us, not reflected on your transcript, to give the committee a complete picture of yourself?" But even there, while he could pen a sentence explaining/apologizing for 9th grade, why? The transcript itself already tells the good outcome. You're fine. If he feels he just has to talk about it "somewhere" that might be the place, since they just want a sentence of acknowledgment of any mysteries, not a big story.</p>

<p>BTW, there's usually a place on the application, just a fill-in box, that asks for the parents' education. Understand that when they see you have just the h.s. education, and H has just a year of college attended, they will recognize a hard-working individual student in your S. Again, no apologies needed.</p>

<p>Colleges want people for the "now" and the "future" so don't dwell on the past; your family train is moving forward now, and that is truly a blessing.</p>

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<p>One of my sons had a single low grade for 9th grade AP Math. I'm sorry to report that we believe that grade absolutely hurt his admissions. Two low grades--one D and one F? That will worry adcom. Even though many schools do not count the freshman grades in the GPA, the grades are forwarded to adcom. </p>

<p>I recommend he takes a proactive stance toward mitigating the impact of those grades.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The GC recommendation letter will be critical. Your son might want to write out his version of the explanation for those low grades and give it to the GC as a 'reminder' for her/his letter. Personally, I wouldn't waive confidentiality if the GC wouldn't be offended. Confidentiality is overrated IMO. He needs glowing recommendations.</p></li>
<li><p>Does your son need money? If not, one way to show his first choice the 'love' is to apply ED. Schools like to be adored.</p></li>
<li><p>How many times has he taken the SAT? 1310 is a wonderful score here on planet earth, but in the land of high stakes admissions, it might help his poor freshman record if that score were over 1400. Heaps of boys have weak GPAs--adcoms make admission decisions about boys' potential based on the SAT. Heaps. The higher the CR score--the better. A +700 CR score would help to make those low grades disappear for the schools on his list.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>FYI the rule of thumb for first tier schools like the Ivies is SAT +1450. the Ivies would not overlook those failing marks IMO--unless he turns into an international superstar of some sort.</p>

<ol>
<li> Have you visited the GC and seen his school Scattergrams? Where does his record fall on the scattergram? In my observation, it is very tough to 'beat' the history of the school scattergram. CC cannot tell you if he has a chance at BU and Northeastern (both increasingly popular)--without looking at his school scattergram. If his school scattergram history shows that his scores are a likely admit--then you can probably rest assured.</li>
</ol>

<p>Some schools post their scattergrams online. Keep in mind, admission qualifications vary from school to school. In general, the better the high school, the tougher the standards for elite college admissions.</p>

<p>Good luck! After his high school experience, your son will make the most of whatever college he attends. It's not a bad thing for a boy to miss out on his first choice schools due to his poor performance. Those boys often turn into the most ambitous, most driven college students.</p>

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<p>What subjects would your son consider majoring in? What outside activities are most important to him? These answers could help us recommend other colleges to consider or rank the ones you already mentioned in terms of "fit".</p>

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<p>hi well that was unnerving and confirming my worst fears, but it does seem with all due respect that most people agree 9th grade grades get little attention if any at all so I am trying to keep focused on that. His school does not do scattergrams so I do not have that to help me. My son is interested in most recently medievial history, physics and business. He is however applying for communications with a minor in one of the above possibly.
We are meeting with his GC on Friday and I am going to explain everything in detail, plus we were having some family/marital problems in his 9th grade year and it was stessful on all of us, I am convinced some of that is what caused him to slack so much. Other than that there is no real excuse other than he was very immature at that time, and didn't have the maturity to see how important it was to start school off on a strong note. I am happy with his 1310, I mean I think given his history this is a huge leap of promise for him and we are going to have to trust that this will be fine for him....hopefully he did even better today but we will see. He also will take SAT 2's in Nov. My best friends three kids all are in Ivy leagues schools and I disagree with the min. SAT being 1450, two of them got in the high 1300's, one is at Brown the other Cornell and the oldest got 1400 and is at Princeton, so not every kid in the ivy leagues gets over 1450. Bottom line...what everything I read and here, its a total crapshoot for ANY of these kids.</p>

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<p>Also we thankfully are not applying for financial aid but have been advised that ED/EA is not a good idea because he will not be able to show any of his senior year and this is critical to showing his continuing upswing.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It is a crapshoot for all these kids

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Sorry, but that is simply untrue. .</p>

<p>Is your son an URM by any chance? That fact would change his admissions opportunities.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
1310 is a wonderful score here on planet earth, but in the land of high stakes admissions,

[/quote]
Well, cheers' thorough posts have been in the "dose of reality" vein and may have put a damper on some of the encouragement you have been receiving from others of us.</p>

<p>Believe me, we spend a lot of time on these boards pouring large buckets of cold water on the insanely unrealistic expectations of some students and even of some parents. Too often, we see college lists heavy with schools which accept fewer than 10% of applicants, routinely see SAT scores north of 1450, valedictorians and salutatorians ect... No safe or match schools on their lists.</p>

<p>I don't think, personally, that is appropriate to this case. Although cheers' family may think correctly that <em>one</em> low grade on a freshman AP course hurt their boy's admissions results, we don't know what schools he was seeking admittance <em>to.</em> If it were to the "high stakes admissions" schools she's thinking of, I don't doubt it. And it is a blemish, no question, no matter what schools one is thinking of. But it is highly likely to be counterweighted by the upward trend and all of the other elements of the OP's son's profile.</p>

<p>As to whether he needs to get over 1400 on his SATs.... Let's hope he got a higher number on his re-take. That is always a good thing :). Certainly that is what I hoped for my S; but mine did NOT achieve the 1400+ and had quite good results.</p>

<p>The OP's son is not looking at Harvard/Yale/Princeton/MIT/Stanford et al. His list is quite different. This is what I found for the schools on his list (be aware that these data from collegeboard.com may not be up to the minute, but they are a good barometer for the OP to guage her son's chances.</p>

<pre><code>Acc Rate 25%-75%SAT %hs GPA 3.0-3.24 3.25-3.49

</code></pre>

<p>BU 58% 1180-1370 23% 18%
Northeastern 74% 860-1080* 17% 18%
Syracuse 51% 1120-1330 17% 14%
U of Miami 40% 1180-1360 4% 7%
Villanova 43% 1180-1370 7% 14%
St. Josephs 56% 1060-1230 23% 18%
Fairfield 61% 1090-1270 17% 22%
Quinnipiac 58% 1100-1240 not reported</p>

<p>*using ACT/SAT conversion chart</p>

<p>So... some of them look reach-y. And that is fine; there should be reaches. Some are solid matches and some should be safe for him.</p>

<p>It's never a good idea to think it will be a cake-walk. But it's also not a good idea to be overwrought OR (and this is my point) to take the measure of your son's scores and GPA against those of kids who may have been applying to an entirely different caliber of schools.</p>